Possible Paladin Provoke

[ValisOfValefor]

Re: Possible Paladin Provoke

I am really in doubt that they would give us another provoke like ability... I mean it would be nice but seriously, think about it then we could all just sub ninja and whiph away damage just like them except with one less shadow. Heck i think the rumor about enrage was started by someone who wanted to become the ultimate tank by subbing ninja, having lots of defense and shadows, duel weilding, and provoke.
I play pld/war, never planning on lvling ninja, unless it is necessary. I like a challenge. This game really doesnt need another easy button.

[Karinya]

Re: Possible Paladin Provoke

Well, I didn't notice that much hate coming from enspells, but I haven't really tested it.

In any case, though, I think you're underestimating the importance of interruption. Haven't you ever had one of those fights where you flash and provoke, take a few hits, try to cure yourself, get interrupted, wait a couple swings, try to cure yourself, get interrupted... someone else gets a crit and you've lost hate.

PLD/RDM would have it even worse since they don't get the opening provoke. Every spell except Flash would face a serious chance of interruption (and the enfeebling magic ones would face a pretty darn high chance of interruption, with 0 base enfeebling skill). At higher levels, even spells cast under cover of Flash aren't guaranteed.

Stoneskin will guarantee you a couple casts before it breaks, I guess, but good luck recasting it once your initial one has broken.

Once you *do* lose hate, interruption pretty much goes away, probably allowing you to recapture it without too much trouble, but who wants that kind of hate bouncing in the first place?

[Armando]

Re: Possible Paladin Provoke

It's true that every spell that isn't Flash would have a serious chance of interruption, but any spell with a 4 second cast or less can be timed to not be interrupted (with the exception of a TP move directly following an attack, there's no helping that.) Fast Cast would also shave off over 10% of the spell's casting time and give more of a buffer.

[EuphoricOni]

Re: Possible Paladin Provoke

all the /nin stuff i see here i just kinda brush off to the side... blink tanking would defeat paladin tanking in my eyes :-\ there are so many other things that would compliment pld better ... like i said in the dumb pld/mnk post "eat dmg with a side of nuke" remark sub mnk would be good ... i strongly agree with these /rdm ideas as well being as rdm is balanced and would thus help pld ... more mp for pld in my eyes is good being a galkan pld ... right now i am topped off at a whole 71 mp lol ... what else could there be ... /whm seems like an idea to go on too... more potent cures would make more potential hate grabbing ... not to mention mp again ... /brd is good too i like all these idea and i'm just sayin it here cause its the place to state it ... i know everyone has said these before again i'm just lookin at it ... agreeing disagreeing adding my two cents thats pretty much it

[Icemage]

Re: Possible Paladin Provoke

Well, I didn't notice that much hate coming from enspells, but I haven't really tested it.

Enspell enmity rating is very very low. About the same as any other single target buff spell. I never pulled hate with it in early XP parties (read: Qufim, where hate bounces around like a basketball in most parties).

In any case, though, I think you're underestimating the importance of interruption. Haven't you ever had one of those fights where you flash and provoke, take a few hits, try to cure yourself, get interrupted, wait a couple swings, try to cure yourself, get interrupted... someone else gets a crit and you've lost hate.

PLD/RDM would have it even worse since they don't get the opening provoke. Every spell except Flash would face a serious chance of interruption (and the enfeebling magic ones would face a pretty darn high chance of interruption, with 0 base enfeebling skill). At higher levels, even spells cast under cover of Flash aren't guaranteed.

Stoneskin will guarantee you a couple casts before it breaks, I guess, but good luck recasting it once your initial one has broken.

Once you *do* lose hate, interruption pretty much goes away, probably allowing you to recapture it without too much trouble, but who wants that kind of hate bouncing in the first place?

It's not impossible to get Stoneskin off under cover of Flash, but it's quite difficult to be sure. More useful would be Blink - cheaper, stops more damage than Stoneskin does against IT enemies, and takes less time to cast. You could Flash / Blink and earn both some enmity and some damage mitigation for a lower MP cost. Also remember that a PLD/RDM would have Fast Cast working for them, so the interruption isn't quite such a huge problem.

I still don't think PLD/RDM has enough hate generation tools though - Bind, Sleep, and Dispel are RDM's highest enmity spells, and of those, only Bind is cheap to cast, but has a 1 minute recast.


Icemage

[Armando]

Re: Possible Paladin Provoke

Enspell enmity rating is very very low. About the same as any other single target buff spell. I never pulled hate with it in early XP parties (read: Qufim, where hate bounces around like a basketball in most parties).

Really? Strange. It always seems to lock hate on me when I go RDM/BST, but then again, when I do that, the hate is constantly bouncing, so the actual hate line is paper thin, and it wouldn't take much to skew it in my favor.

I still don't think PLD/RDM has enough hate generation tools though - Bind, Sleep, and Dispel are RDM's highest enmity spells, and of those, only Bind is cheap to cast, but has a 1 minute recast.

I'm not going to argue that PLD/RDM works without any sort of experience, but it deserves a shot. And, Blind isn't cheap to cast as well? It's only 5 MP. Dispel is the most expensive out of those spells, but it only costs 25 MP - the same thing Flash does, which most PLDs use every 37 seconds religiously anyways. Not to mention, Cure III costs 48 MP, but those get thrown around fairly easily as well. Worst case scenario, you get a THF to secure hate early on.

[Feba]

Re: Possible Paladin Provoke

Enrage has been in .dat longer than I can remember...

[Taskmage]

Re: Possible Paladin Provoke

Enrage has been in .dat longer than I can remember...

Yeah, but a recent patch gave it tooltip info and a recast time, so with SE talking about making changes to pld, it's a decent theory atm.

[Davitron3000]

Re: Possible Paladin Provoke

Although it might seem a good idea to try different subs for Paladin if we were
to indeed get a "second provoke", I for one would probably still sub Warrior.
Actually, I am drooling at the thought of me being able to voke the mob twice.

[perry]

Re: Possible Paladin Provoke

I havent posted here in forever.

My problem with all this talk of the new JA and /NIN is that when you /NIN at 75 you are less your main than you are a Ninja.

What I mean is, I am a PLD, not a NIN. I chose this job because I like the idea of having MP, taking damage, curing myself, and the whole "Holy Warrior" feel. I love the fact that our job is undisputably the best user of a shield, and with the addition of the new JA, we are in fact Shield Masters. If I wanted to have perma-invincible, and be the most powerful job in the game, I would have just leveled ninja.

If I were to /NIN then it would be dumb for me to use a shield. - I'd rarely get hit, and even when I did, it wouldnt do a lot of damage (in exp parties), I could then use my dumbly large amount of MP to cure what little bit of damage I had.

I'll tell you why enrage has been there forever, because PLD is a hard job to balance. They dont know what the hell to do with enrage.

Whether your like it or not, our job is not primarily a damage mitigation job. Its a hate job. If you dont take any damage, then you cant cure yourself. Holding hate against uber equipped 75s is hard, let alone without curing yourself. You cant just take away the damage that is dealt to us and expect us to still be able to hold hate. Well, you can, but then how would we be any different than a Ninja?

I'm probably the only one who feels this way, since everyone wants to be the most powerful job in the game. It'd be great to solo stuff and get chains out the wazoo, but not at the expense of the job I love dearly.

I love the shield changes, the auto refresh, but they arent enough to put us on par with NIN. If they want us on par with NIN, they need to keep adjusting that shield and add another hate JA to make up for the difference in hate loss through less need for cures, and perhaps a couple of PLD only higher DPS swords. This way, between parry, shield block, auto-refresh and a Paladins MP, the party itself should start the battle with roughly the same MP as they would have if a NIN were tanking.

Now here is the kicker - What happens when you have a job that has the hate abilities of a Paladin and leaves the healers with roughly the same amount of MP as if he were healing a ninja? BAM - Ninjas become the second choice.

My point is that if they arent going to put PLD on par with ninjas in a manner that lets us remain Paladins, then screw it, I'll just be the 2nd best tank in the game.

As far as other subjobs go I'm open. PLD/RDM makes sense to me, and why hasnt anyone been asking about PLD/WHM with the new JA? Remember how every noob who walked through the door used to question us all for not subbing WHM?

Sorry for the rant.

[EuphoricOni]

Re: Possible Paladin Provoke

I like the idea of having MP, taking damage, curing myself, and the whole "Holy Warrior" feel. I love the fact that our job is undisputably the best user of a shield, and with the addition of the new JA, we are in fact Shield Masters. If I wanted to have perma-invincible, and be the most powerful job in the game, I would have just leveled ninja.

And

I'm probably the only one who feels this way, since everyone wants to be the most powerful job in the game. It'd be great to solo stuff and get chains out the wazoo, but not at the expense of the job I love dearly.

I agree and feel the exact same way...

P.S.- I made it to page three please join me...


<--- = Ãœbertool

[Hamlet]

Re: Possible Paladin Provoke

Stoneskin and Phalanx are based off of enhancing skill. Rdm has the highest enhancing at B+ and Paladin has D skill. So they aren't going to be as effective. Phalanx might absorb about 7 dmg off everything, which might be nice if you add it up over time.

Blinks only 2 shadows and it takes forever to cast, just like stoneskin.

Enspells are also based on enhancing skill, so they are going to be less effective.

As for dispel you can forget about it. With 0 inate enfeebling you'll never land an enfeeble.

The only thing that rdm brings is fast cast and aquaveil. The fast cast from 15 isn't very noticable, and although aquaveil would be very beneficial for plds, you can get that from whms.

The spells rdm have seem great for pld, but the problem is you need rdm's enhancing for them to work. If this thing were to work and pld wouldn't need war, whm would be better for more mp and status spells.

Really, I think monk would be the perfect sub. I've always thought that it's basically a tanking job that's only drawback is it can't wear heavy armor.

[Armando]

Re: Possible Paladin Provoke

Hamlet, you're underestimating PLD's Enhancing skill waaaaay too much.

RDM enhancing caps out at 256 at 75, PLD caps at 210.
RDM enspells would do 17, PLD's would do 15 (+skill or +enspell equipment ignored.)
RDM Phalanx would reduce damage by 24, PLD Phalanx would reduce damage by 18 (far more substantial than 7.)

Blink is 3 shadows, not 2. It can be cast pre-fight with Stoneskin, or right after Flash.

I thought Dispel has extremely high accuracy and can be landed even when subbed? Either way, it'll generate hate.

You're also ignoring Magic Defense Bonus, which can be very handy. And while Fast Cast may not be noticeable to the naked eye, it can make a big difference on spells that are exactly 4 second casts (Regen when soloing, for example) - since most enemies attack every 4 seconds un-slowed, the timing is extremely precise. Fast Cast allows a bigger leeway (along with reducing recasts on Flash.)