Possible Paladin Provoke

[little ninja]

Re: Possible Paladin Provoke

little ninja, don't you have anything better to do than troll the pld forum for an excuse to say "lolz pld sux" again? Stop. It's spam. At least say something constructive next time or I'll give you a warning.

actually if you go to new posts, you will see this topic, so technically im not trolling the pld forums. secondly i said id give it a chance if they get abilities, because playing a job with no abilities sux over time.,

why didnt pld get provoke, because war already had it, an S.E tries not to make the same wob, plus they implimented subjobs to give them the ability to voke.

honestly if the outcry is for pld to want to go /nin, why not give nin the ability of provoke, since they do have 0 job abilities.

[Wiergraf]

Re: Possible Paladin Provoke

Giving pld provoke is much more realistic than giving it to nin... Nin wasnt meant to tank in the first place, PLD and WAR were. Though I also agree with previous posters, PLDs don't really need any extra Job Abilities to hold hate, but getting another would be nifty.

If PLD did get a provoke like ability, I'd like to see more PLD/WHM, PLD/RDM around ^^

[Icemage]

Re: Possible Paladin Provoke

I think the whole idea that Provoke is the end-all and be-all for PLDs, while it is universally acknowledged as useful, isn't quite as necessary as people seem to believe. Sure, it's useful, but it's neither foolproof nor especially good at maintaining hate over time.

There are other ways to generate enmity; the reason why most PLDs use /WAR is because Provoke comes very early (level 10/5) and you get some neat tools later from /WAR (Berserk, Defender, Warcry).

From an enmity standpoint, if we're going to split hairs, there are other subjobs that are at least as viable under specific conditions. PLD/NIN is known to be useful in a number of end-game situations. I've seen PLD/BRD work too, given enough +enmity gear at 32+ (cycling threnody, requiem, and lullaby works wonders).


Icemage

[Karinya]

Re: Possible Paladin Provoke

The problem I see with PLD/RDM is that you're losing an uninterruptible hate grabber that costs no MP (Provoke, and at higher levels, Warcry as well) and replacing it with interruptible hate grabbers that do cost MP (Sleep, Blind, Dispel, etc.) This causes several problems, potentially, especially considering PLD's lack of enfeebling magic skill.

It's not that I don't like the idea of adding phalanx, stoneskin and blink, but then that's even MORE MP usage.


PLD/BLU might be possible too, with the cheap effectiveness of Cocoon and some very short casting time blue magics. Interruption would be almost guaranteed if you got hit while casting due to lack of skill, but if you stick to spells with under 1 second casting times (and cocoon before fights), you might be ok. But it still has the high MP usage problem, and potentially, the resist problem too (does anyone know the mechanics of /BLU and resists? Are physical blue magics gimped by your lack of Blue Magic skill or are they good as long as your weapon skill is good?).


But in either case, I don't think an ability with a 3 minute timer is going to change much - unless it generates a really immense amount of hate, enough to last the whole fight.

[Stromgarde]

Re: Possible Paladin Provoke

PLD/BRD... sounds interesting. I might have to try that, actually. The principles of hate generation are somewhat similar to PLD/RDM, but not dependant on mp and 100% uninterruptable.

Being able to cast ballad is nice as well.

[Taskmage]

Re: Possible Paladin Provoke

If people are actually having some success with alternate subjobs in exp settings without Enrage, then maybe a 3 minute ability to establish hate at the beginning of the fight would be enough to promote some alternate subjob use and give paladins some more interesting tools to work with.

[Slip]

Re: Possible Paladin Provoke

My thinking is that with the right party and good players you can probably make anything work. Without Provoke your hate bar will be set lower but if the party can scale back it's damage or if you can find a way to amp your hate up more (ex: High Breath Mantle + Dorado Sushi) you can probably still do ok.

That said, there's nothing wrong with Pld/War either. Pld/Blu or Pld/Rdm might work out ok, but I doubt for regular xping any of the other subjob options will ever obsolete /War, War just brings too much else beyond Provoke for that to happen.

[Taskmage]

Re: Possible Paladin Provoke

Don't forget the possibility of /mnk. Extra hate control through boost, extra damage mitigation and hate through counter, higher vit and max hp bonus.

There's /nin too, of course, but I wonder if you could effectively maintain hate in an exp party using utsusemi with no provoke.

[Slip]

Re: Possible Paladin Provoke

Don't forget the possibility of /mnk. Extra hate control through boost, extra damage mitigation and hate through counter, higher vit and max hp bonus.

Yeah, Pld and Mnk really do look nice together. If I remember right Chakra cures status ailments too right which can be handy if your Whm is busy when something nasty hits.

There's /nin too, of course, but I wonder if you could effectively maintain hate in an exp party using utsusemi with no provoke.

I've heard of Pld/Nin's doing well, but it seems like you've got some Anti-Synergy going on there. Utsusemi and avoiding damage sound nice on the surface but healing damage is where a lot of our hate comes from. I'm thinking back to Kazham as an example. The Mandy's are hard to work with not because they're dangerous (honestly a Blm could tank them without too much worry) but because they're not doing enough damage for us to maintain a steady stream of Cures. No Cures means it's our sword damage vs the other melees weapon damage vs a Blm's nukes.

On some mobs that might not be as much of a problem of course. If the mob does enough damage that we can't keep up with our cures that'd be a good candidate for shadows. Or if we can do enough damage dual wielding I could see it working out ok. Overall though, I'll opt for something other than /Nin I think.

[sevenpointflaw]

Re: Possible Paladin Provoke

With enrage on a 3min timer, I wouldn't expect it to be a hate spike like provoke. In fact, I'd expect it to be exactly the oposite. Something that essentially has the effect of +enmity and little (if anything else). Think about it it this way:

PLD doesn't need more hate to keep on par with NIN. What they need is something put thier damage mitigation on par with NIN damage negation. If PLD could hold thier own as well as a NIN, there would be a more even divide.

Flash is a wonderful tool, but it doesn't generate as much hate as a Provoke. Provoke can hold out against a few things that Flash cannot. Plus, flash is a very high level spell compared to provoke.

As a flat +Enmity from Enrage though, Flash becomes as powerful as provoke (or more), and while you are now using 25mp and dealing with a longer recast time than provoke, you gain the advantage of everything generating more hate. Because of this, Flash hate spikes cary over longer, as do cures, shield bash, etc.

So by the time you need to flash again for the big spike, you have it ready for that nominal 25mp.

Where am I going with all of this? Well, IF Enrage was just enough to tip Flash/ShieldBash/Etc in favor of a non-provokable approach, you now have the capability then to start seing other subs. You might have a slightly more MP intensive battle style, but If you can sub /whm, then you have the MP to make up for it.

Or of course there's always /nin, but then PLD loses most of its hate tools, since it is no longer curing itself (though curing others makes tanking possible still in certain cituations).

Anyhow, its just one things that I've thought of that would be a "hate" addition to Paladin that might be geared towrds opening other sub posibilities without duplicating provoke.

[Slip]

Re: Possible Paladin Provoke

That's.....that's a fantastic idea! It's no big deal if it's on a 3 min timer if it's got a 3 min duration - like Defender say. Make it enough +Emnity and Provoke would definitely become optional.

Hmm, if they don't implement that, it would certainly be something to write in for.

[EuphoricOni]

Re: Possible Paladin Provoke

This enrage ability ... makes me think ... oh whats this ? /mnk? =a million hp/lvl ... counter ? boost this has all been said but the more it is said the better it sounds no? monk being a very very VERY solid hp class that can eat damage with a side of nuke ... and then paladin with defense of 200 million ... lol ... i can see it now ... if enrage does +enmity over time somethin like a defender > flash > boost > WS (possibly try your damned hardest to close a skill chain) this is obviously something people have thought about ... it just looks so much nicer typed out on "paper"...

[Armando]

Re: Possible Paladin Provoke

Since we're discussing odd tanking subs...

I'd like to say that yesterday I tried out Enspells for the first time in battle (RDM hit 18, finally) and they get plenty of hate (it'd always turn the mob from my pet.) So PLD/RDM gets 6 more hate spells in addition to Blind, Bind, Sleep, and Dispel. Enspells, Blind, and Dispel have 10 second recasts, Bind has 40 seconds, and Sleep has 30 (not counting Fast Cast and Haste.) PLD/RDM should be able to cycle through hate spells nonstop if necessary - it could make up for the lack of Provoke when securing hate at the beginning of the fight. They're also relatively low in MP cost, since Blind costs 5, Bind costs 7, Enspells cost 12, Sleep costs 19, and Dispel costs 25.

The only things that would hold back a PLD/RDM from having a deathgrip on hate are MP conservation, actually wanting to hit the mob for TP, and needing to manage hate so that the mob can be turned for SATA. Seems to me like the job combo could hold hate fairly easily - the question is, how much MP would you burn in the process?

[EuphoricOni]

Re: Possible Paladin Provoke

Bravo ! Sometimes i like to try to think logically about it ... I'm good with a rifle i get a scope i get better by enhancing it ... someone takes my scope ... i'm pissed at them ... same scenario execpt they are wearing a silly hat (which is enmity+ cause its noticable or something to that extent) i hate them more... a very poor medaphore i just put it here for comedic value and to show the idea that debuffing is awesome too lol

[drecan]

Re: Possible Paladin Provoke

I would imagine that 'Enrage' would have the same effect as a mix of warcry and berserk without the defense loss. Possibly a +acc to help the pld strike better and harder? Just a thought. But with a 3 minute cool down what if your doing a very tough exp train the 3 minute timer wouldn't really help out the much.

its just a thought but we shall find out once they release it.