Full MP Paladain

[JP_Ikari]

Originally posted by Grizzlebeard
Whenever I see people suggest the paladin uses all his MP to heal I think two things. Firstly, just wtf does the whm intend to do with their MP? Secondly, I think I should grab my ankles and wait for the inevitable. Healing when you're being beaten like a red-headed step-taru isn't the most reliable way to stay alive. Yes, you can time it so the mob hits you when you're 10% into casting and therefore should get the heal off but dropping in job abilities and detrimental effects like slow, paralyze and silence tend to get in the way of the ideal healing conditions. Stocking up on MP+ items is one thing, but consider how many items a paladin can use that has "spell interuption rate down" on it.

Too briefly touch on the Flash point raised as well. It's very rare Flash causes most IT,+ or ++ mobs to miss. It's a burst hate tool with very limited duration and annoying recast. I'd swap it in a second for Stun but that's probably just due to the fact I'm used to stun spells for damage avoidance from my EQ paladin days.

OH shit, yer an EQ player too :D, that's tight. God the stun days. ; ;.

JP

[Rhayn]

Originally posted by ZQM
PLD's damage isn't anything special in the first place (Which I'm sure you agree with after reading this thread).

Actually, with Life belt and R.G. Collar, I gain 300% TP about every 2 fights if I don't rest too long, which I use for a 650 damage Spirits Within (at full HP). Granted, I have Joyeuse, but even before I got it and I was using Espadon+1 I would be able to use Spirits Within about every 3 fights for the same damage. It helped not only with damage and getting faster killes but also with hate control against high-damage magic bursts. Also, if you have a good RDM (or BRD) and WHM, MP isn't a huge issue. Whenever I did rest, it was usually only for around 2-3 ticks before our puller returned. If I had both Refresh + Ballad, it's like I never would have needed to rest and still been able to cast enough Cure spells to keep hate.

For someone perhaps even more adventuresome, there is of course the option of macroing in attack, acc, and str+ gear for PLD WS. I currently macro in Amemit Mantle for Savage Blade or Swift Blade to give it just a bit more boost. PLD base stats are actually not bad for damage and, in fact, my base STR is higher than a Hume DRK's base STR (mine is 75) and I believe a WAR's strength as well. We can also equip a considerable amount of gear that can raise our damage, it's just that we choose to use gear better suited for damage reduction. Just as an example, in actuality, a Byrnie+1 is better than or equal to PLD AF in almost every way (VIT, HP, and Defense), not to mention the Attack+ means the attacks actually can do nice damage. If you really wanted to macro in gear for damage, I'd suggest something like this, ignoring the fact I set it up for PLD/NIN.

To quote another thread found here:

the only good thing about dualwield as pld is when you switch into attacker gear and start throwing out 600->800dmg Savage Blades @100-150% and have the warrior in yer pt start bitching about how he needs a dmg+tp gaining upgrade. Hrotti+Joyeuse

But anyways, regarding what setup to use, I would advise against full MP setup in general. It's true that if the monsters hit you consistently for 70-120 damage it could work nicely at 60+, but that unfortunately doesn't happen often.

Playing paladin, expect to get crits fairly often for ~200 and for particularly nasty WS (Sickle Slash anyone?) to occasionally bring you from full HP to near death. Whenever this happens, it's very important for the mages to heal you up quickly so the following hits don't kill you. If the PLD is the main healer at this point, it is much more likely that your important life-saving Cure spell could get interrupted, especially since you'd have to wait until the next attack to start casting anyways. It's much safer on high-damage mobs like the ones I described for the PLD to equip as much VIT+ and Defense+ as possible to reduce the high-damage weaponskills. With 6 MP/tick it means you can be much more liberal with your Cure spells, but I wouldn't rely on it allowing you to become the main healer.

I will add a disclaimer though: On mobs that hit particularly soft or have relatively weak weaponskills, it is actually a good idea to equip MP gear for the extra hate. An excellent example would be Crabs in Boyahda or chaining Bones in King Ranperre's Tomb. In otherwords, a Paladin's accessory gear (neck, rings, belt, earrings) is actually very situational and a good Paladin will change their gear based on the party setup and what type of monsters they're fighting.

Regarding Sword vs. Earth Staff: Again, this is situational. On monsters that don't hit hard, use Sword/Shield all the way. I've found that with near-capped Shield Skill I can block roughly 20-25% of VT and often IT monsters, which is the same as Earth Staff's damage reduction. Against monsters like this, I equip Sword/Shield, R.G. Coller, Life Belt, and don't use Defender. I still take 100 damage or less from normal hits, but I also hit for 20-50 damage per swing with ~45-65% accuracy. I usually do this in King Ranperre's Tomb where it's more about high-damage and fast VT chains instead of killing tough, but high-exp mobs.

However, if you find that you are taking high damage, even with Defender, I would advise to use Earth Staff if you have capped skill and especially after level 63 for Spirit Taker. The only times I'd really advise this are on monsters such as Golems, Big Birds, and other hard-hitting monsters. I usually use this full def+ and vit+ equipment against Aura Statues in Tu'Lia. Against most anything else though, you're better off with Sword/Shield for the blocking, extra damage, and hate control.

I hope my comments were helpful and insightful.

[Asherek]

Well said Rhayn. As I pointed out, Earth Staff is a very situational thing.

For someone perhaps even more adventuresome, there is of course the option of macroing in attack, acc, and str+ gear for PLD WS. I currently macro in Amemit Mantle for Savage Blade or Swift Blade to give it just a bit more boost. PLD base stats are actually not bad for damage and, in fact, my base STR is higher than a Hume DRK's base STR (mine is 75) and I believe a WAR's strength as well. We can also equip a considerable amount of gear that can raise our damage, it's just that we choose to use gear better suited for damage reduction. Just as an example, in actuality, a Byrnie+1 is better than or equal to PLD AF in almost every way (VIT, HP, and Defense), not to mention the Attack+ means the attacks actually can do nice damage. [/B]

Exactly what I do now with Swift Blade, however I also swap in MND+STR rings.

[Elesirdur]

Additionally, as a Hume character you don't suffer the MP defeciencies as a Elvaan or Galka Paladin would. Personally, I love parties that are set up as Brd, Rdm/Whm, Blm/Whm, Pld, +2 DDs since with Ballad II and Refresh there's near unlimited MP. However, depending on the kinds of MOBs your fighting, you may need a WHM for certain spells like Stona if you're fighting Cockatrices.

Nevertheless, the only +MP items I equip for battle are my AF gear, though before getting my Gallant Coronet I was always wearing a Hairpin of some kind. However, if I was to switch out all my +Vit gear for +MP Gear, ie. 2xAstral Rings, Gold Hairpin, Republican Mythril Medal, etc... I would be taking way too much damage even while equipping my Gluttony Sword. Thus the extra MP would be a moot point because I would burn through it so fast that the extra MP gain would be negated by the excessive MP needed; where as I cand spam Cure II and the occasional Cure III, I would be needing Cure III all the time and Cure IV probably once or twice a fight.

Granted, with all that extra cureing you would be indeed accuring much more enmity than just weapon strikes alone, but you're putting yourself - and your other pt members - at greater risk of being KO'd if things don't go right.

PS: The Earth Staff debate has been settled for quite some time now. Exp PT: Sword+Shield, HNMs: Earth Staff or /Nin sub.

[Dark Aphalite]

Okay fair enough, if you are tanking some heavy hitting mobs then maybe you can switch to Earth Staff.
But for all the other mobs I see many many more advantages in using traditional Sword + Shield over Earth Staff.
More damage, faster TP gain, Shield Bash, shield block.

Anyway, try it and see if it is going to be successful.
I will be stick to my Espadon+1.

[Asherek]

PS: The Earth Staff debate has been settled for quite some time now. Exp PT: Sword+Shield, HNMs: Earth Staff or /Nin sub. [/B]

No it's not quite settled that cut and dry. I hate to keep saying the same thing, but it's a very situational thing. There will be mobs you will face that using an Earth Staff is far more beneficial than Sword+Shield even in a exp scenerio (ie. Aura Statues), but that doesn't mean that Earth Staff > Sword+Shield. It's situational.

As for HNM, it's not that cut and dry either. I do know many importers and JP PLD stress using Sword+Shield even for the Gods, over using Earth Staff. High Shield Skill = way more Shield Blocks + chance of getting even higher Shield Skill.

I've seen a video, I really wish I could find it again, of a PLD tanking Genbu with reportedly very high Shield Skill, who was Shield Blocking often enough to outweigh the gain from the -20% Physical Damage taken.

As well, Sword+Shield only for Fafnir if you have Hrotti, so it's not that cut and dry as exp PT: Sword+Shield, HNM:Earth Staff.

[Elesirdur]

Fair enough Asherek, I think you make a really good point about the shield blocking quotient.

I'm not trying to say that you can't use the Earth Staff, but as others have mentioned before me, it is a situational thing. Personally, I havn't been in any situations that have necessitated that I use an Earth Staff, but from other {Sky}-lvl Paladins I know on Bahamaut very few use anything but Sword+Shield in an Exp party unless they're pulling out the Great Sword to get a lvl 2 Light renkei going.

[Judah]

just carry both shield/sword and staff.

you can just simply make sword/shield equip command on shield bash macro.

I lved bst to 75 so my shield skill is pretty damn high(202) yet I still don't shield block often enough to notice any difference. I use staff for 1 thing; to save mage's MP. I don't know about you guys but no matter what I do I always hit 0-4 with sword or staff, most of time it's always miss miss miss even with 35 acc boost. Anyways Spirit Taker is such an amazing WS, always saves pt on ugly situation. Gettin instant 75~180 mp is just too secky.

so I've come to realize:
Spirit Taker 120~ mp for Cure IV and flash > spirit within for 150~200 dmg

ps: can't wait till 69 so I can use G Sword for Spining Slash ^^"

[Dark Aphalite]

Originally posted by Judah just carry both shield/sword and staff.

you can just simply make sword/shield equip command on shield bash macro.

I lved bst to 75 so my shield skill is pretty damn high(202) yet I still don't shield block often enough to notice any difference. I use staff for 1 thing; to save mage's MP. I don't know about you guys but no matter what I do I always hit 0-4 with sword or staff, most of time it's always miss miss miss even with 35 acc boost. Anyways Spirit Taker is such an amazing WS, always saves pt on ugly situation. Gettin instant 75~180 mp is just too secky.

so I've come to realize:
Spirit Taker 120~ mp for Cure IV and flash > spirit within for 150~200 dmg

ps: can't wait till 69 so I can use G Sword for Spining Slash ^^"

Are you kidding me? Spirits Within will do a MINIMUM of 400 damage up to 700+.
The whole point of Spirits Within is to get 300% TP before using it, if I have 100% TP it is a rediculous waste to use Spirits Within at that moment.

And I also have never encountered a moment where I would benefit in using an Earth Staff over a Sword + Shield.

And just another counter, someone said if you have a very high shield/parry skill then you can replace Earth Staff for Sword + Shield when fighting Gods. Well I can use this exact argument for the Staff or Sword debate.
If you have maxed Shield skill then this gives an even greater reason to use Sword + Shield over Earth Staff.

Overall it is much much more useful to use a Sword + Shield than an Earth Staff. Shield Block, Shield Bash, more powerful hits, better hate control, more WS.
Okay fair enough, you can still macro Shield Bash when using an Earth Staff but then you lose all your TP which creates more hassle.

So Sword + Shield is a clean and stress-free way of tanking compared to Staff and is a lot more favourable.
Why else does 99.99999% of the PLDs use it over Earth Staff?
Seriously, out of all my time playing I have never heard or seen any PLD use a staff while in EXP party.
And a few occassions when I came to my party with a staff equipped they immediately ask where my sword and shield is.

So unless you show me a video or chatlog comparison of the two I will not ever consider using a staff in EXP.

[Asherek]

Originally posted by Dark Aphalite
Are you kidding me? Spirits Within will do a MINIMUM of 400 damage up to 700+.
The whole point of Spirits Within is to get 300% TP before using it, if I have 100% TP it is a rediculous waste to use Spirits Within at that moment.

His point was that Spirit Taker @100% TP + Cure IV > waiting till getting 300% TP + Spirits Within in terms of hate getting ability. Read carefully what he said.

I'm not going to argue how effective Spirit Taker is, but even if you were to get back around 80-90 MP back, that is at least 2 Cure III's you can spam, remember that.

And I also have never encountered a moment where I would benefit in using an Earth Staff over a Sword + Shield.

I keep saying it's a situational thing. I have never stressed that Earth Staff > Sword+Shield in majority of situations, just that you can encounter a few scenerios where Earth Staff > Sword+Shield for exping. You haven't tanked Aura Statues at level 73 yet, judging by your sig. Do that and come back and tell me that Earth Staff has no use in exp PT.

And just another counter, someone said if you have a very high shield/parry skill then you can replace Earth Staff for Sword + Shield when fighting Gods. Well I can use this exact argument for the Staff or Sword debate.
If you have maxed Shield skill then this gives an even greater reason to use Sword + Shield over Earth Staff.

I've said it before, it's not that cut and dry. Exping and HNM are different in a few ways. You have to space out your MP much more in HNM, be careful with what you cast, etc. Spirit Taker would come in handy, but the big problem is that it hardly lands for much on HNM's...

On exp mobs, it lands for much higher however. Am I saying that Earth Staff > Sword+Shield? No. In fact, I agree with you that the parrying/shield blocking is very important, etc.

In any case, don't discount using an Earth Staff in an exp PT depending on the situation! Did you ever tank Elder Goobbues at level 66? It hurts a lot with Sword/Shield combo, even with high Shield Skill, since they use a lot of specials which can't be Shield Blocked or Parried. Earth Staff comes in handy here.

So unless you show me a video or chatlog comparison of the two I will not ever consider using a staff in EXP.

I'll try and make one if I can, no promises though. (Time constraints for me)

[Mephisto]

-usually- if you fight IT++, you're barely going to ever hit anyways, so sword is near useless. If its plain IT or lower, sword/shield is better. again, its situational.

[Lan'Urk]

I have found that Staff is a better lvl up tool expecially for bones and pots PT... however I find earth staff pretty shitty for lvl up PT due to the lack of damage therefore lack of MP drainage with Spirit Taker... what I use for lvl up is Iron Splitter... it drains a whole MP pool back every 100 TP... and that my friends is true MP efficiency... I can spam holy if I find fit and not even have a refresher... but with earth staff I HAVE to warcry berserk to get above 100 and even still often times I get some shitty damage... and I don't even have retribution yet... once I get that I believe I will also be able to deal decent damage to bones and pots which is always a plus. maybe Earth staff might be a bit better with staff skill actually capped but, I think with retribution and the possibility of dealing good damage with Iron Splitter would outweight the -20% damage (since shit you lvl up on don't hit that hard and with all the MP you get from Spirit Taker it doen't really matter.) but I think if I was to exp on weapons or something other than blunt weak mobs I would most likely use sword... but KRT+Spirit Taker=FAST FAST exp.

now the other Issue... I think in order to reduce downtime instead of stacking on MP, stack on defense and absorb a lot of damage... Like it was said previously Humes don't have much of an issue with MP, so if you suit yourself with HP DEF and VIT I believe will suit you and your party better in order to reduce downtime by decreasing the amount of damage you take therefore requiring less healing. although before refresh even with downtime a good set up you will be making killer exp so it doesn't really matter in my opinion. just use your MP wisely, for example... you don't need to be at full if you are fighting like crabs or shit that don't have high damage WS... and etc... and use flash... 25 MP with good divine skill you will be negating a lot of damage with the blindness... Flash is not just a provoke companion, its a really good way to negate damage.

but again once you get around 60 or so get spirit taker... that thing is freaking sweet... I was a staff nay-sayer till a RDM in my LS persuaded me to skill up my staff for Spirit Taker... now I'm sold... Staff>>Sword... I may go back to sword once I get a joyuse but as of right now Iron Splitter is my weapon of choice.

~Lanurk

[ZQM]

Thank you everybody for the replies.

I won't be going PLD so it doesn't matter now, but now I know for later when I decide to level it up.

[Grizzlebeard]

Well, I was in Onz tonight tanking Toramas using sword and board. Pre 61 I was taking 90-110 roughly on normal hits so I decided to throw on my severely underlevelled Earth Staff. Skill is about 165 in staff so I wasn't surprised I was missing like crazy, however, I noticed the average hit drop down to 75 with the odd spike of 90. I'm wondering whether this was an isolated experience but I think I'll spend the next few days levelling staff and then use it exclusively for a few parties.

[Judah]

Originally posted by Dark Aphalite
Are you kidding me? Spirits Within will do a MINIMUM of 400 damage up to 700+.
The whole point of Spirits Within is to get 300% TP before using it, if I have 100% TP it is a rediculous waste to use Spirits Within at that moment.

And I also have never encountered a moment where I would benefit in using an Earth Staff over a Sword + Shield.

And just another counter, someone said if you have a very high shield/parry skill then you can replace Earth Staff for Sword + Shield when fighting Gods. Well I can use this exact argument for the Staff or Sword debate.
If you have maxed Shield skill then this gives an even greater reason to use Sword + Shield over Earth Staff.

Overall it is much much more useful to use a Sword + Shield than an Earth Staff. Shield Block, Shield Bash, more powerful hits, better hate control, more WS.
Okay fair enough, you can still macro Shield Bash when using an Earth Staff but then you lose all your TP which creates more hassle.

So Sword + Shield is a clean and stress-free way of tanking compared to Staff and is a lot more favourable.
Why else does 99.99999% of the PLDs use it over Earth Staff?
Seriously, out of all my time playing I have never heard or seen any PLD use a staff while in EXP party.
And a few occassions when I came to my party with a staff equipped they immediately ask where my sword and shield is.

So unless you show me a video or chatlog comparison of the two I will not ever consider using a staff in EXP.

sorry I always fight mob that's way beyond me so no matter how hard I hit I always hit 0 or miss miss so 300% TP is out of question. no way I can tank Elder Goobbue @ lv 61 with Sword and shield.

Originally posted by Mephisto
-usually- if you fight IT++, you're barely going to ever hit anyways, so sword is near useless. If its plain IT or lower, sword/shield is better. again, its situational.

what he said.

oh and make sure to berserk b4 spirit taker ^^" most I drained on IT+++++++ was 284 mp.

I'm not saying "You Must Use Staff!!! on exp pt" no way. I'm just saying for me, staff is far more useful than sword and shield. I just can control hate better with staff and also easier for mages as well.