Full MP Paladain

[ZQM]

Can this work?

In my upcoming static, I'll possibly PLD (Mainly depends if one of the members wants to play NIN or not). However, the big issue is downtime. When it comes to high chains (6+), MP conservation is extremely important. PLD is just a lot bigger MP sink then NIN or WAR/NIN. My idea? Going full MP. And I mean going the whole nine yards....Astral Rings, +MP hairpins, ect.

Now, this party will have a RDM and a BRD. So, post 55, I will have 6 mp/3seconds refresh, or 2 MP/1 second.

Cure1: MP=8 Softcap=30
Cure2: MP=24 Softcap=90
Cure3: MP=46 Softcap=180

I am unsure of what CureIV's softcap is, please inform me.

Cure3 has the best MP/Softcap out of them all, so would be the best to use.

Time needed to regain 46 MP: 23 seconds.

So, if me and the RDM alternate Cure3's, I would need to take at most 360 damage in 23 seconds to lose 0 MP.

360/23=15.65 damage per second.

Now, my experience on tanking as WAR in a static with a BRD (from ~66-75), the lowest mobs attack speed with Carnage Elegy is a little more then 4 seconds, most are in the 5-6 second range. This is also without slow for the most part, however, I wouldn't imagine slow having that big of an impact as it's far weaker then Elegy.

So, to not lose any MP:

4seconds:15.65*4=62.6 damage per hit
5seconds:15.65*5=78.25 damage per hit
6seconds:15.65*6=93.9 damage per hit

By macroing in DEF/VIT (Which wasn't much, mainly just Haubergeon>WAR AF and STR rings>Phalanx Rings. Other then that, I was completely offensive built when tanking) when Utsusemi wasn't up and activating Defender gear on my WAR, the damage I took was going from 80-150 on most mobs. Considering the fact that PLD has more natural VIT and DEF, and the MP gear's defense/vit wouldn't be that much less then the offensive gear I wore when tanking on WAR, I should take around the same amount of damage with Defender on. I was thinking that, since I'll be using so much MP, I shouldn't have to worry much about hate. So then I can switch to Earth Staff and keep Defender up 24/7. If I am able to, and the damage taken is around the same as on WAR, that would reduce it to 64-120. That's very close to the damage per hit to not lose any MP that I posted above. This should allow for high chain > rest > high chain. Not much resting can be done imbetween battles, considering how fast pulls need to be in high chains, which is why I would want my max MP to be as high as possible.

Another thing to remeber is Spirit Taker at 63 if I do use Earth Staff to further help MP concervation. A lot of my WAR gear is equibable by PLD, so I could switch that in for WS. However, considering my lack of offense during normal hits, resting imbetween battles, and probably switching to Dark Staff, I'm sure this isn't something to rely on.

And ofcoarse, flash every 36 seconds (with haste) to neglate 2 (Or only 1? I believe, if timed correctly, it can dodge 2 though) for only 25 MP.

Thoughts, opinions, critism? I know some things that look good on paper don't work ingame, so even though this looks good to me, it might not end up working.

[Dark Aphalite]

orz

You do not use Earth Staff in EXP party.

With the lack of defense and HP bonus you will get down to less HP than if you were equipped "normally". Then you would have more MP to cure yourself back up but if you were equipped "normally" you would have recieved less damage in the first place and thus need to cure yourself less.

So it evens out but going all out MP+ increases your chances of death and also creates more hassle for no apparent benefits.

The reason it makes it easier for you to die is that you have less HP and Defense than a "normally" equipped Paladin your level and as you are going to have the mobs constantly attacking you you have the issue of spell interruption. So yes more MP but that doesn't make it easier to cast spells. You will have to be healing twice as much and this means more hassle.

To me this just doesn't look like it would work.
You could try it for fun but I strongly recommend the traditional way over this.

[Mephisto]

Originally posted by Dark Aphalite

You do not use Earth Staff in EXP party.

just because you dont doesnt mean its not good

[csBahamut]

From my experiences trying it, Earth Staff just does not work. The best thing is to stick to normal tanking gear and use a dark staff between battles to retain as much MP as possible. As of my current level, I typically cast 1 Cure IV and 1 Cure III per battle. Sometimes a second and third Cure III if the mob just won't die and the WHM is using too much MP. I tend to use 2 flashes per battle too. The BRD and RDM are going to use quite a bit of MP just to keep you healed, and you'll be lacking regen II/III from a real WHM. Even if you are able to space our your resting just enough to make those high chains, you'll have to rest to full to do it again. My static finds it better to just goto chain 4/5 and start the very next chain right away, so we don't have the end of chain downtime. We constantly fight, but we don't get the big chains. It may not be what your looking for, but I know it works. One to two ticks of MP with Dark Staff between fights is enough with refresh to keep enough MP to constantly fight.

Cure IV softcap is either 370 or 380 I think.

Defender is pointless to use unless you don't use +def food, or you're fighting mobs that give more than 200 base exp.

The only way I can forsee you keeping up on MP is by bringing Ethers.

[ZQM]

Originally posted by Dark Aphalite
You do not use Earth Staff in EXP party.

Why not?

PLD's damage isn't anything special in the first place (Which I'm sure you agree with after reading this thread).

And as far as hate gaining from sword, my point would still be that mass-curing myself would give a lot of hate. My experience with PLDs is that they didn't cure themselves that often. However, admittidely, my experience is also extremely small.

So the only other reason would be the loss of shield. The defensive stats of Earth Staff outweight those on shields. So the only other reasoning would be blocking with a shield. However, you would need to block with shield once every four attacks to equal the same damage loss as Earth Staff. Sounds pretty farfetched to do it that often to me, though I don't have the experience. I have, however, leveled NIN to 56 with capped parrying, and I didn't parry anywhere near that rate.

if you were equipped "normally" you would have recieved less damage in the first place and thus need to cure yourself less.

However, by being able to use an Earth Staff, the damage one takes shouldn't by that much different then one in deffensive gear. Afterall, -20% physical damage is a lot.

And ofcoarse, the whole arguement of using earth staff with "normal" gear = using earth staff with MP gear could start back up...more less MP = more conservation = less cures = less hate?

Also Earth Staff does less and less as the damage you take is reduced. As an example:

let's say one gets hit for 50 damage and has 100 MP. one gets hit for 100 damage with 200 MP.

100/50=2
200/100=2

Add in Earth staff: First then gets hit for 48 damage, second gets hit for 80.

100/48=2.08
200/80=2.5

So yes more MP but that doesn't make it easier to cast spells. You will have to be healing twice as much and this means more hassle.

After leveling a tanking WAR to 75, I'm used to casting a 4 second spell imbetween hits, with getting interupts being the difference between life and death. Although I don't know the exact casting time of cure spells, I doubt they're more then Utsusemi:Ichi.

[ZQM]

Double post because you post while I was typing my above one, and editing is for people who care.

Originally posted by csBahamut
The BRD and RDM are going to use quite a bit of MP just to keep you healed

Well, the whole point of it would be that I would be me as my own main healer. As posted, the damage damage I need to take compared to the damage I suspect I would take is extremely close, and the gap would be filled by 1) resting imbetween battles 2) the max MP raised.

Ofcoarse, that doesn't take into account crits, double attacks, or special attacks. Which the BRD could fill in against things like crabs where it isn't a problem...though things like Spiders I'm sure it's a problem.;/

[Unholy Prince]

Technically, I believe this could work. Its like the Taru Defender Paladins who do no damage whatsoever.

Let me give an example, the Hume Paladin in my Perma uses Defender 24/7, and has very little ACC gear. Yet he holds hate better then any other Pld i've been with, due to his MP use. His hit rate blows anyways, maybe 40% on the Parser, so his Sword isn't keeping much hate. The shield is an added bonus, yes. I don't think him switching to an Earth Staff would hurt much at all.

You can be a great hate keeper with just MP, as he proves. However Nny, at a certain level, you shouldn't be burning through that MP a chain. We have no downtime on our Pld, hes Hume, and only runs with Refresh, not Ballad + Refresh. I don't think you need to sacrifice VIT gear or AF for MP gear, past 41, maybe 55, maybe 59, as you deem comfortable. You'll find you never have to go through all your MP anyways. I'd reccomned macro switches to switch out the MP gear once you've used it, if your really deadset on it. But with 6 mp/3 sec, Carnage Elegy, Minne(if your Bard is good and can hit only you), and Earth Staff, you really shouldn't need it. We have 3 mp/ 3 sec, Slow, and thats it, and he never breaks his full MP, and keeps hate fine enough to hold against a Ranger, Black Mage, and Monk, all who are very well equipped.(who pulls hate on Bones, but duh).

I think your going into an unnecesary overboard, but all in all, your idea is viable. Good luck with it.

[csBahamut]

Well, the whole point of it would be that I would be me as my own main healer.

If you're fighting ITs, you'll run out of MP is just one battle trying to do this. My static's WHM spends 150-300 MP per battle.

PLD's damage isn't anything special in the first place (Which I'm sure you agree with after reading this thread).

And as far as hate gaining from sword, my point would still be that mass-curing myself would give a lot of hate. My experience with PLDs is that they didn't cure themselves that often. However, admittidely, my experience is also extremely small.

Yes, mass curing can make up for lack of any offensive power. Though, it's much easier for a WHM to rest during battle, than it is for a PLD. Thus, those sword hits add enough hate to not need to cast more healing spells to save MP. Though, this goes against what you're trying to do.

Earth Staff vs. Shield.
For the mobs my static exp's on, I typically get hit for for 90-120 damage per hit. Earth Staff is -20% damage reduction. That's only 1 out of every 5 attacks negated. With a shield, you have a chance to parry and shield block. Between those two skills, I negate the damage from 1 out of every 5 attacks. Both negate around the same amount of damage, so it comes down to if you want that extra damage dealing to kill faster, or more healing like you want.

You can always give you're theory a try. It's the best way to see if it could really work.

[Mephisto]

Originally posted by csBahamut
If you're fighting ITs, you'll run out of MP is just one battle trying to do this. My static's WHM spends 150-300 MP per battle.

WRONG BRD RDM backline lets PLD be his own healer, with the occasional need for RDM to heal (ws, crits, etc). Or try using Earth staff and vermillion cloak if you only have either RDM or BRD. It works wonders.

[csBahamut]

Taking the MP regen time he's stated at the start, and the fact that he will need to use Cure IV's to just stay alive, he'll burn through MP faster than any MP regen can help. The BRD and RDM will be needing to help heal.

Say he uses an Earth Staff and defender against Processionaires at level 63/64. That puts damage taken around per hit around 70-100, not counting crits which will be around 170-200. Add in the random Poison Breath for 300-400 damage. He will be needing to use Cure IV. That's 88 MP per cast. If he's able to get a multi-RNG cheapo party, then the party might be able to kill the mob in a minuite or less. One minuite to 1.5 mins for a party like my static. More for not-so-good parties. And that's only my estimate for non-SC fights. At 6MP/3secs, he'll gain back about 120 MP in in a 1 min fight. He'll more than likely have to cast 2 Flashes (50 MP) and at least 3 Cure IV's (264 MP) worth of HP healed(1140 HP if cap is 380 *note* higher level cures are always more MP efficient). This is only a severly rough estimate. As is, I typically cast a Cure IV, a Cure III, and 2 Flashes per battle. More if the battle is lasting too long.

The next time my static goes exping, I'll try to parse some fights with sword and shield, and some with Earth Staff and defender to show my MP usage and damage taken. It'll most likely be on darters.

[Asherek]

Earth Staff vs. Shield.
For the mobs my static exp's on, I typically get hit for for 90-120 damage per hit. Earth Staff is -20% damage reduction. That's only 1 out of every 5 attacks negated. With a shield, you have a chance to parry and shield block. Between those two skills, I negate the damage from 1 out of every 5 attacks. Both negate around the same amount of damage, so it comes down to if you want that extra damage dealing to kill faster, or more healing like you want.[/B]

You don't lose the ability to Parry by not having a Shield. You can and will parry the same amount with an Earth Staff.

Earth Staff is really good for tanking hard hitting mobs like Perytons, Elder Goobues etc., especially with capped skill and Spirit Taker.

[Asherek]

You do not use Earth Staff in EXP party.

I have severe doubts that you have tried it with capped skill + Spirit Taker.

[breal777]

Originally posted by Asherek
I have severe doubts that you have tried it with capped skill + Spirit Taker.

I have, and I think that shield and sword are far better for exp. Chance for parry+shield block>-20% damage, mp drained from Spirit Taker is useless as it's based on your attack damage. Most I drained on an exp mob was around 50...better off using sword and shield and just switching to Dark Staff for resting in between fights.

[Asherek]

Originally posted by breal777
I have, and I think that shield and sword are far better for exp. Chance for parry+shield block>-20% damage, mp drained from Spirit Taker is useless as it's based on your attack damage. Most I drained on an exp mob was around 50...better off using sword and shield and just switching to Dark Staff for resting in between fights.

Unless you're fighting a very heavy hitting mob earlier on...

Fighting Elder Goobbues at 66 is very very doable efficiently with an Earth Staff if you have capped skill + Spirit Taker as opposed to Sword/Shield combo.

It's a very situational thing, one that isn't necessarily recommended for all situations. Another one would be against Aura Statues when you are only 72-73, Earth Staff comes in very handy here again.

[Grizzlebeard]

Whenever I see people suggest the paladin uses all his MP to heal I think two things. Firstly, just wtf does the whm intend to do with their MP? Secondly, I think I should grab my ankles and wait for the inevitable. Healing when you're being beaten like a red-headed step-taru isn't the most reliable way to stay alive. Yes, you can time it so the mob hits you when you're 10% into casting and therefore should get the heal off but dropping in job abilities and detrimental effects like slow, paralyze and silence tend to get in the way of the ideal healing conditions. Stocking up on MP+ items is one thing, but consider how many items a paladin can use that has "spell interuption rate down" on it.

Too briefly touch on the Flash point raised as well. It's very rare Flash causes most IT,+ or ++ mobs to miss. It's a burst hate tool with very limited duration and annoying recast. I'd swap it in a second for Stun but that's probably just due to the fact I'm used to stun spells for damage avoidance from my EQ paladin days.