Joyuese

[WishMaster3K]

DarkHero, you seem like a cool dude, so here's a link.

http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/sho...threadid=49169
^Experiment in Red Mage Tanking

[DarkHero]

thanks for the link, but i was wondering how tdh expects rdm/nin to hold hate.. that thread talks about rdm/war

[Apple Pie]

No, there's no way RDM/NIN can hold hate better than PLD/WAR even though RDM/NIN is tricked by DRK66+/THF. When someone else is aggroed, how can RDM/NIN turn them back? Throwing Cures maybe but it prevents RDM/NIN from meleeing (This is also one of ways to hold hate, isn't it?).

Tanking isn't anything like just being a sandbag. It is the way to allow attackers and nukers to use as much of their firepower as possible. PLDs have a lot of strong and useful tools for tanking like RDMs have those for soloing.

[imac2much]

Unless you're a BST, no one actually does duo-trio pt for xp, unless you're talking about just "having fun" and making 1-1.5k xp/hour or something.

The fact is, Joyeuse helps PLDs in PTs and solo, Joyeuse helps RDM solo. It aids both jobs almost equally well, except that for PLD it also indirectly helps all PT members. RDM is not going to be using Joyeuse in xp pt unless you're fighting things that are weak anyway (and in which case it wouldn't even matter if RDM is using Joyeuse or not). RDM can use it to fight lower lvl things, to solo, to camp NMs, etc, but it is mostly a "selfish" thing... not to say RDM are selfish, but it does not indirectly benefit anyone else.

PLD can use it in xp pt and other parties, and it DOES make a noticeable difference in keeping hate and damage dealt. They also build TP faster for skillchains or 300% spirits within. It indirectly helps everyone in the PT. This is why PLD should have priority over RDM.

[AtraposBLM]

Originally posted by imac2much
Unless you're a BST, no one actually does duo-trio pt for xp, unless you're talking about just "having fun" and making 1-1.5k xp/hour or something.

The fact is, Joyeuse helps PLDs in PTs and solo, Joyeuse helps RDM solo. It aids both jobs almost equally well, except that for PLD it also indirectly helps all PT members. RDM is not going to be using Joyeuse in xp pt unless you're fighting things that are weak anyway (and in which case it wouldn't even matter if RDM is using Joyeuse or not). RDM can use it to fight lower lvl things, to solo, to camp NMs, etc, but it is mostly a "selfish" thing... not to say RDM are selfish, but it does not indirectly benefit anyone else.

PLD can use it in xp pt and other parties, and it DOES make a noticeable difference in keeping hate and damage dealt. They also build TP faster for skillchains or 300% spirits within. It indirectly helps everyone in the PT. This is why PLD should have priority over RDM.

The only problem I see with that logic is that it only holds up while the PLD is EXPing, which will only occur from lv70 to lv75. I'm not 100% sure, but for the most part, PLD's don't use Joyuese on HNM, so that arguement doesn't really hold much wait. PLD solo abilities also won't be greatly improved either - they're already probably the best solo'er behind BST and RDM. So basically, Joyeuse does 2 things for a PLD - helps them level from 70 to 75 faster, and improves their ability to farm. Unless you plan on using Joyeuse for the *majority* of the time you tank HNM, I don't see RDM and PLD wanting it are any different.

Even though a PLD with a Joyeuse benefits his whole EXP party, it's still a mostly "selfish" reason - he gets to hold hate easier, using less cures, being lazier with JA, etc. (Not trying to minimalize the work that ANY PLD does, but the fact of the matter is, Joyeuse will make his job much easier). But once again, this does not benefit the LS that got him the sword any - the only way it would is if he uses it on HNM (assuming you got the sword from an HNM-based LS, and not from say, a static + friends group). So imo, RDM and PLD have the same amount of claim on Joyeuse. It's one of those "extras" that are nice to have, but if you don't use it for tanking HNM...it's just that - an extra tool for you to carry around to help yourself out - no different than a RDM carrying around staves/club for parties, and a sword for solo.

[imac2much]

Atrapos, you know I respect your opinions, but I think you're going a bit to the extreme when you say Joyeuse in xp pt is selfish because it allows PLD to be lazier. In that sense every good equipment in the game is selfish, because it makes it easier for said class to do a good job. Dark staff would be selfish because mages don't have to conserve MP as closely. Good armor would be selfish because it lets the tank take less damage and make his job easier. Up-to-par subjob would be selfish since it gives you additional JAs to make your job easier (warcry for PLD is a good example).

In this sense, EVERYTHING that improves your character is selfish some way. But the difference is whether it helps other people or not. Joyeuse for RDM does not help other people... he uses it for soloing and farming, not in a conventional xp pt. Joyeuse for PLD *does* help the people in his xp pt.

But you bring a good point that PLD don't use joyeuse on HNM... so, does that mean the highest priority for Joyeuse should be WAR?

In any case, PLD still use Joyeuse for xp'ing past 75 (merit points) more so than RDM would, esp on things like aura statues (though I know some PLD use earth staff on these). Many PLD I know use joyeuse on PH's and stuff in sky for the items you need for the gods. The fact remains that PLD can use it in more ways that benefit other people than RDM, because the PLD is automatically going to melee and still be doing his job properly, whereas a good RDM won't always have time to melee, or if he does it'll make up a very small amount of time compared to all the refreshing, dispelling, enfeebling, curing, magic bursting he's doing.

Since WAR can use it in both xp pt and HNM, perhaps they have highest priority, then PLD, then RDM.

[Sadeira]

zaptruder has both hrotti and joyeuse but tends to use joyeuse more at fafnir... (an observation i've made during one of our many fights)

i'm guessing that he wants to use it to build tp faster so he can use spirits within or skillchain with the rngs with savage blade on the wyrm. in either case, my assumption is that with joyeuse, he can generate more hate with spirts within or savage blade and thus be able to hold hate solidly.

i'm not entirely too sure though. hope he shows up and puts in his two cents.

however, i definitely do not think that joyeuse is not a 'selfish' piece of equipment for a pld. anything that allows a pld to hold hate after a big mb from a black mage is fine by me.

i admit though, that my possession of a joyeuse is indeed 'selfish'. and i do love it.

[Radamvice]

Thought it strange that ive seen no mention of Company Sword in this thread. Ive heard mention its damage gets to 58~ in full pt and has the added effect, in comparision to joyeuse, of not feeding the monsters tp if you pay attention to that sort of thing.

I personally dont see the debate over what should be happening over these rare/ex items as well. They come from mobs that are usually planned kills, who "should" be lotting on it and such should be decided in advance, one would hope. Personally, though, I feel joyeuse is a luxury ... plain and simple. Maybe thats because i am a brd main atm and know how dramatically that weapon would improve my solo farming efforts as well Then maybe its because i feel that the only job with any arguement for this weapon is pld, and i find it quite a bit suspect with the alternative swords out there.

[Apple Pie]

Hmm, I think it's more like a LS issue. Not all linkshells are HNMLS though.

In my LS, I'm the first one to have it although there are two LV75 PLDs. Why?

The other day, I helped one of them to get Dainslaif. He promised me to help me to get Joyeuse in return. The other PLD hardly shows up. She only comes whenever she needs a help. I don't like her very much. "Give and Take" is the most important thing for my LS. No one cares such a priority. If someone helped me to get something, I'll work for her/him in return. That's it for us.

[Zaptruder]

Originally posted by Sadeira
zaptruder has both hrotti and joyeuse but tends to use joyeuse more at fafnir... (an observation i've made during one of our many fights)

Actually, I use hrotti more; I build TP with joyeuse for the initial spirits then switch out to the hrotti because of its higher damage; which means less 0s; which basically amount to a miss.(although I still get alot of those).. with the double attack rate, they both build TP at around the same rate. But most of my TP at fafnir comes from been hit; which I observed with some amusment as I tanked him without drawing my weapon... :p

But for anything I can damage normally, I use joyeuse on.

[AtraposBLM]

Originally posted by imac2much
Atrapos, you know I respect your opinions, but I think you're going a bit to the extreme when you say Joyeuse in xp pt is selfish because it allows PLD to be lazier. In that sense every good equipment in the game is selfish, because it makes it easier for said class to do a good job. Dark staff would be selfish because mages don't have to conserve MP as closely. Good armor would be selfish because it lets the tank take less damage and make his job easier. Up-to-par subjob would be selfish since it gives you additional JAs to make your job easier (warcry for PLD is a good example).

In this sense, EVERYTHING that improves your character is selfish some way. But the difference is whether it helps other people or not. Joyeuse for RDM does not help other people... he uses it for soloing and farming, not in a conventional xp pt. Joyeuse for PLD *does* help the people in his xp pt.

But you bring a good point that PLD don't use joyeuse on HNM... so, does that mean the highest priority for Joyeuse should be WAR?

In any case, PLD still use Joyeuse for xp'ing past 75 (merit points) more so than RDM would, esp on things like aura statues (though I know some PLD use earth staff on these). Many PLD I know use joyeuse on PH's and stuff in sky for the items you need for the gods. The fact remains that PLD can use it in more ways that benefit other people than RDM, because the PLD is automatically going to melee and still be doing his job properly, whereas a good RDM won't always have time to melee, or if he does it'll make up a very small amount of time compared to all the refreshing, dispelling, enfeebling, curing, magic bursting he's doing.

Since WAR can use it in both xp pt and HNM, perhaps they have highest priority, then PLD, then RDM.

First, I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I wasn't saying that it was selfish for PLD to want Joyeuse because it makes hate holding easier - I was simply saying that using the same logic as "RDM only need the sword for solo, therefore they're selfish", you could say that its the same for PLD. Instead, my point was that assuming the way the PLD got the sword was through his/her HNMLS (a stupid assumption I should've made clear), there is almost no difference in giving a PLD a Joyeuse and a RDM a joyeuse. Why? The majority of the time the RDM is doing events with the LS, he/she won't be using Joyeuse. That was your point, and it's correct. However, the majority of the time the PLD is doing events with the LS, he/she *also* won't be using Joyeuse. That was my point - looking at it from a "who will benefit the LS more" point of view, the PLD will *just* slightly benefit the linkshell more - not drastically, seeing as doing all the little things in sky are fairly easy, and hate holding shouldn't be that difficult. That, or they're fairly difficult, and require the use of Earth Staff. However, I qualified myself - if in fact, most paladins *do* use Joyeuse the majority of the time they're camping things for their LS, then I guess I'm wrong. Most PLD's I've dealt with in my 2 HNM LS's (well....3 I guess, but one broke and formed another, and I count that as 1) did not use joyeuse while tanking HNM, so that's what I'm basing my opinions on.


Second, I agree with your statement about warriors - if you're dealing with warriors that for the most part use Joyeuse to tank or DD. Most warriors I've seen, however, use Berserker's Axe (sp? The +30 attack axe) and another axe that I forgot the name of.


Lastly, if you're dealing with a group of friends like Apple Pie stated, who mainly do things to help each other out, then lotting is pretty much a moot point. Were it up to me, I'd let any of the given jobs lot it if they were willing to pop Charybdis. Meaning, if a RDM, a THF, and a DRG went to the Grotto and popped Charby, I'd let those 3 lot over a PLD or a WAR, regardless of how usefull it is to them. But meh....such a complicated issue. I just try to help people that have helped me, and hope that they get what they want. I've gotten all of those items I wanted already (the only peice of equipment that I have left to get that I can't buy myself are Zenith Pumps (very low priority) - everything else I just have to find a way to make money to get), so all I want is to see friends get what they want.

EDIT -- Looking back on my post, I can see why you thought I was saying what you did. I guess I'm just not making myself clear, as the message I got by reading my post was definately not the one I was trying to convey. Maybe this post will clear it up...I think I confused myself:sweat:

[PaladinsArc]

The other night, a RDM and a NIN from my linkshell killed PH and we let the RDM have the sword over a PLD. Now we just free lot it. On another note... I use the joyeuse for just about everything.

[LionhartPLD]

Originally posted by Patchinko
Question: Does Joyeuse's added effect stack with Double Attack?

No. Double-attack just makes it activate more often. For example Joyeuse is something like a 60% chance of double attack with no War sub. With war sub it's closer to 75~85%. War main and AF for double attack it is probably something like 85~90%.

[Patchinko]

The general consensus has been that the Joyeuse attack rolls first and, if no multiple attack, the double attack roll happens, so you end up with a slightly higher amount of multiple attack rounds. (e.g. If Joyeuse naturally goes off 50% of the time, 50% of the time double attack will not happen, so the double attack rate is reduced by half, making it about 5.5-6%... so multiple attack rounds would happen about 55-56% of the time.)

This is theoretical, though I'd love a solid answer with numbers from FFRep if anyone's willing (Grendal? ) Any data to back up that claim yourself, Lionhart?

[Apple Pie]

Patch, it is hard for me to track this because FFrep isn't able to tell us how many times DA kicks in. I have to read through the whole log and count it manually

The easiest way to verify this is have two people (one with WAR sub and the other without it) and let them melee in a PT. Then, check how many times they swing it in an hour or so.