Paladin Hate Control; How hate works.

[MDenham]

Petrify will drop a LOT of hate off just because it essentially removes the target for 15-30 seconds (IIRC) for any use except being hit.

Likewise, I think Sleep drops off a lot of hate as well, possibly dropping everyone affected to whatever the highest non-Slept member of the party's hate level is. Net result: the monster has everyone who was on the hate list still there, but will go after them at random. Good example for lower levels is Brutal Sheep, when they use Sheep Song. Our party earlier today had that happen - four of us got slept - the sheep went after all four of us basically at random.

[Impmacaque]

i still don't see why you guys think that hate from healing and damage dealt doesn't fade. i've managed to keep hate after a 1200 point freeze magic burst from a blm who never got hit. 1200 points of damage is more than a flash and provoke. now if this blm had that 1200 points of hate on him, plus still had all the hate from the rest of the damage he's done, how would this be remotely possible?

Well, if you are a Paladin who knows what he's doing, you'll have your Spiked Ablities available right before the freeze burst; and fire them off just as you see it go. With proper timing, Provoke > Flash > Sentinel > Shield Bash > Cure 3 all at once will most likely hold your hate through any high momentaneous damage; IE 1.2k freeze burst. Depending on how much perpetual hate you've gathered before the burst comes around, you could hold hate through 1.2k damage fairly easily. I've held through benediction that's healed over 2.2k HP total, simply because of spiked ability timing. If anything, the Mage/Melee know to hold off very high damage spells/Renkeis/extremely large heals until my voke is available; unless it is an emergency. When all else fails; I cover.

another thing i've noticed, enemies actually have some attacks that drain your hate, either completely or a lot. for instance in quicksand caves that AoE petrify the enemies use. they use it petrify the melees then right after go attack the mages.

In my belief, every offensive action performed against you will lower your hate, as described above. Spells and Weapon skills from enemies are still to me erratic, I just get the feeling that certain offensive actions boast much greater hate loss than other, IE: Petrify will drop alot more hate then a single attack from a mob. Since the mages at the moment were not effected, your hate total dropped before there's, and they were attacked.

and something i've been wondering and haven't really had a chance to test. when you cover someone, does the damage being dealt decrease your hate, or the person you are covering.

As long as you are taking the hits from cover, the hate rules apply to you only.

[Loial]

Impmacaque, question for you... If this is the case:

With proper timing, Provoke > Flash > Sentinel > Shield Bash > Cure 3 all at once

then what are you holding hate with before the 1.2k MB or 2.2k Benediction?

Just asking, since I like to see methods that other PLD use.

[imac2much]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions of course. I still don't think perpetual hate from damage/healing drops much, if at all. If it DOES fade over time, it is at a MUCH slower rate than spiked hate. And when BLM's do Freeze and whatnot, you probably already have plenty of hate from chain Provokes, chain Flashes, some cures and a JA. Don't tell me you will keep the hate if the BLM casts Freeze to start off the fight. Chain Provokes will gradually build your hate higher and higher, eventually enough to be more than the 1.2k damage Freeze or whatever.

(Oh and for it's worth, this is another strange theory I encountered: some people believe that Provoke adds enmity to the user and DECREASES enmity from anyone else on the monster's hate list... I don't know how true this is, but just letting you know that there are tons of theories out there, and mine aren't necessarily the correct ones. They just seem to work for me.)

Oh, and about the Anticans... their petrify attack is different than just a regular petrify. For example, Sand Cockatrices in Terrigan petrify all the time, but that doesn't make me lose hate at all. A good WHM with stona will unpetrify you in a few seconds, so it's not that much of a problem. However, the Antican petrify is different as it seems to completely erase you from their hate list. From some Japanese boards I used to browse, there are apparently a few other monster abilities that do that (completely erase you from the hate list), but I can't remember off the top of my head. If someone else can remind me/inform the board, that would be great.

[LordBiGGs]

i didn't stack flash, provoke, cure III, shield bash sentinel. i guess i could have had enough hate still left from previous provoked to maintain agro, but still, there is a lot of damage dealt during a battle. spiked hate must laster longer than i think, or "perpetual hate" has to fade somewhat. maybe its even possible that damage and healing cause hate spikes that fade but a certain amount that remains forever, who knows.

another point, i'm waiting for someone to tackle the test i posted earlier.

"try this. have 2 people fight a mob. something like pld and drk would be best. let them fight for a while and dont let the drk get hit. after they've been fighting for a while and the drk has done something in the area of 1000+ damage (at this point if hate from damage did not fade the drk would have 1000 points of damage for his hate with no hate lost.) now have a ranger come along and do a side winder for like 800 points of damage, significantly less than the drk has done through out the fight. watch the ranger get agro'd."


yea, the antican thing is pretty rough. its not a temporary thing either. once you get petrified and unpetrified its difficult to get your hate back. its not like when it wears off, you can just provoke and get agro back most of the time. ant goes after the whm and the party starts provoking like we're trying to do a skillchain. usually takes a provoke and a flash to regain agro.

for sleep i never had this problem. i almost always kept agro after getting slept.

[Altimo]

On the CHR topic...

Well, many have wondered if CHR effects every class, or if it only effects BRDs and BSTs. I believe in the former.

My way of understanding CHR is that it affects every JA in the game, and, to put it simply, every ability that doesn't use MP. However, what it affects is strictly based on the ability. Provoke is an ability that was completely meant to gain hate for you. So, CHR gives you more hate on Provoke. However, CHR might (<--Keyword) make an ability like Defender last slightly longer on average, or make an ability like Steal have more chance of success.

For the PLD topic, the only reason why I believe that CHR has a major role in PLDs and WARs is solely because of the Koenig/Kaiser Equipment. Just about every PLD aspires to equip multiple peices of this equipment for its huge VIT increases. But, along with VIT, it also adds the same amount of CHR.

I believe the reasoning for this is that Provoke has to do with CHR and affects its hate gathering ability. People may dissagree saying that PLDs dont have Provoke to start out with and that CHR has no reason to be on that armor, nor will it affect Provoke.

Kaiser/Koenig armor, along with many other new weapons and armor, were not in the game to start off with. Even weapons like Ragnarok, which were in game coding, do not have the same effects/weapon stats as the Ragnarok that was added in the new Patch.

These new armors and weapons are to reflect the players' playing style, and PLDs sub WAR 95%-99% of the time. S-E has seen players do constant Provokes and learn how the game's system works.

The last argument that is raised is that very few other classes get equipment that raises CHR very high for their abilities and that classes that may need high CHR dont get it naturally. Realistically, I think PLDs get a high amount of CHR for a reason.

I may not have everything explained, and I know my post may have all been for nothing, but please consider this. If someone gets the Koenig/Kaiser equipment, please test this. That equip has the CHR boosts to prove whether CHR has any affact on Provoke.

[Icemage]

Just a few things to add to this discussion:

- Attacks which miss do provide a (very small) amount of enmity. Generally this is not noticeable on the grand scheme of things at higher levels, however, since the big attention-getters like big spells, AoE abilities like Rampart/Circles/Warcry/etc, big WS, etc. all far overshadow any small difference in enmity from missed attacks.

- Hits which deal 0 damage generate minimal, if any, enmity.

- Damage does have an effect on the amount of enmity you produce (just ask any DRK who uses Soul Eater). It is a non-linear relationship, however. If I had to guess, I'd say it is probably logarithmic.

- Healing follows similar rules as damage, above. Healing for 0 seems to count about as much as a missed attack. Quantitatively speaking, healing has less impact on enmity than damage, on a point-for-point basis, and is dependent on the spell used.

- I think the jury is still out regarding whether players who are not currently being actively attacked get their overall enmity levels reduced.

- While avoiding a hit (via Stoneskin, Blink/Utsusemi, Parry, Evasion, or Shield Block) will cause your enmity to decrease less than getting hit, it will still decrease. I can vouch that the amount of damage received does have an impact on how much extra enmity you lose on a successful attack from a monster, though.

- The enmity-resetting abilities I am aware of are:
Antican - Sand Trap (short range AoE Petrify)
Sahagin - Hydro Shot
Tonberry - Throat Stab


Icemage

[Impmacaque]

"try this. have 2 people fight a mob. something like pld and drk would be best. let them fight for a while and dont let the drk get hit. after they've been fighting for a while and the drk has done something in the area of 1000+ damage (at this point if hate from damage did not fade the drk would have 1000 points of damage for his hate with no hate lost.) now have a ranger come along and do a side winder for like 800 points of damage, significantly less than the drk has done through out the fight. watch the ranger get agro'd."

I tried this; and I ended up holding hate.

Healing follows similar rules as damage, above. Healing for 0 seems to count about as much as a missed attack. Quantitatively speaking, healing has less impact on enmity than damage, on a point-for-point basis, and is dependent on the spell used.

Hate from healing is dependent on the amount of HP recovered. IE; casting a Cure IV on yourself for 3 HP gets you little hate....whereas casting a Cure 1 in the same situation will get the same hate. Hate from healing is Perpetual in a sense, and if it deteriorates, it does so extremely slowly.

then what are you holding hate with before the 1.2k MB or 2.2k Benediction?

Prior-benediction; I held hate with a Fuidama Guillotine > Berserk Vorpal Blade, cancelled Berserk, Voke, Waited to get smacked around a hit or two, Flash > Cure 3. After initial Fuidama, I'm capable of "holding back" my Mp usage, in addition to not using my abilities for a good deal.

[Impmacaque]

"try this. have 2 people fight a mob. something like pld and drk would be best. let them fight for a while and dont let the drk get hit. after they've been fighting for a while and the drk has done something in the area of 1000+ damage (at this point if hate from damage did not fade the drk would have 1000 points of damage for his hate with no hate lost.) now have a ranger come along and do a side winder for like 800 points of damage, significantly less than the drk has done through out the fight. watch the ranger get agro'd."

I tried this; and I ended up holding hate.

Healing follows similar rules as damage, above. Healing for 0 seems to count about as much as a missed attack. Quantitatively speaking, healing has less impact on enmity than damage, on a point-for-point basis, and is dependent on the spell used.

Hate from healing is dependent on the amount of HP recovered. IE; casting a Cure IV on yourself for 3 HP gets you little hate....whereas casting a Cure 1 in the same situation will get the same hate. Hate from healing is Perpetual in a sense, and if it deteriorates, it does so extremely slowly.

then what are you holding hate with before the 1.2k MB or 2.2k Benediction?

Prior-benediction; I held hate with a Fuidama Guillotine > Berserk Vorpal Blade, cancelled Berserk, Voke, Waited to get smacked around a hit or two, Flash > Cure 3. After initial Fuidama, I'm capable of "holding back" my Mp usage, in addition to not using my abilities for a good deal.