Paladin Hate Control; How hate works.

[Impmacaque]

Thoughout what I've played with my Paladin, I've seen different playing styles, none to much different from my own. I've always wondered how hate works, specifically. Here's what I've figured:

Basics:

Hate is an entity, each person fighting a mob has his or her own individual "Hate meter". When actions are performed by any person while a monster is engaged in battle, something happens to the Hate meter. You can use simple numbers to describe it:

Paladin uses provoke, gains 7 points on his hate meter.
Dark knight uses Stun, gains 5 points on his hate meter.

The Paladin retains the hate, because his hate number is higher than the Dark Knight's. Here's another scenario:

Paladin uses Shield Bash, gains 3 points on his hate meter.
Dark Knight uses Stun, gains 5 points on his hate meter.

The Dark Knight draws hate.

Simple right? Well consider this:

Each time a Paladin tosses a flash/voke, he is building hate. However, from what I've seen, hate has a deterioration rate, possibly triggered by mobs attacking you. Here are my questions:

-How does hate deteriorate over time? Can I toss all my hate skills at once at the start of a battle and still retian every point of hate until the end?

-How does Enmity+ gear work exactly? Does it increase Hate per action, or using my scenario of a hate meter from above; does having more enmity+ gear start the battle with your hate meter with automatic points, as if a provoke had been used before the battle even started?

-If hate doesn't deteriorate over time, why do mobs disengage you after chasing you enough?

-How does Charisma tie into this, and has anyone done any experiements proving Chr = hate?

Thanks to those who read -

[Wayne]

Well I don't have a terrible amount of authority to speak on most of those matters, and many of them don't have hard and fast numbers bound to them.

Taking damage reduces hate. I think it is at the same ratio as hate gained by damaging a mob. So if you hit a mob for 55 damage and say a thf hits for 45 and the mob hits you for anything over ten, they will turn to the thf. I'm not sure if it is in the same proportions but that is one major factor in hate reduction.

Provoke works on spiked hate, which deteriorates fairly quickly by itself. Damage and healing type hate only go away when you take damage OR use a special ability (Hide and Super Jump come to mind) that strips away hate. I know standing still doing nothing reduces hate, maybe running also does. This I'm also not certain of.

There are some higher leveled people around here that could better explain CHRs effect on (or lack thereof) hate gained and also +/- enmity.

[Kagi]

DISCLAIMER
A lot of what's about to follow in this post is based on Mr Rugal's testing and some of my own observations. It's mostly just speculation and a lot of guessing, and a lot of what I do in battle comes from raw experience, not sitting down to analyse what's wrong and where, so I don't have concrete information. When I used to lose hate some levels back I tweaked my strategy by adding another cure2/3 or flash or job ability somewhere, and after 70+ levels I just gained some innate sense of measuring hate, not that I can explain how it works. Basically, I go by 'feel', not formulae.

That said, here I go trying to suggest (<--- note) some answers. Warning, this will be a long read because I just felt like typing it all out ._.)_

Hate Deterioration
Rugal has suggested that there are 2 kinds of hate, spiked hate and a more constant hate. Basically spiked hate comes from provoke and other job abilities, while the constant one comes from healing and damage (like Wayne has mentioned). I was curious about this and experimented a little.

My first test I did in Boyahda at 66 I believe. My usual tactic was to keep up a constant chain of heals (normally loosening up towards the end), but for this test I kept healing to the bare minimum and waited for the massive renkei to begin (from the melee damage dealers). Just before the melees would draw massive hate of a few k in damage I put up a strong job ability, like Rampart, to test how effective the 'spike' was. Much to my surprise I found that I didn't lose hate. However after a few more tries I realised that this method was too risky to use in a normal exp situation because your timing of the ja has to be just right, and the spike you get is sometimes not enough to hold off all the hate. Still, it gave me proof that spiked hate and constant hate exists.

My second test came on whim, when I happened to run out of job abilities in the middle of chaining mobs (I normally have at least one, but this round I either forgot to ration them out or they pulled too fast). So I decided I would try to hold hate with no job abilities, ie. no spikes other than Provoke. I found that I could hold hate fairly well with just cures and flashes. A few fights later I ran out of mp, and I decided to do the reverse, to hold hate with just job abilities. I ended up losing it quite a bit in comparison to the first round with only heals and flashes. My last round I did the same as the 2nd, but I added in 2 simple cures. Not even flash. The result was that I held hate equally well as the first. So apparently the hate deterioration from job abilities is quite fast (unless you use all your job abilities at regular intervals throughout the fight you need some constant hate), just that we don't notice it due to the constant provokes and healing that all good plds should practice.

From observation:
Shield Bash and Sentinel are roughly the same amount of hate
Rampart and Warcry have much better hate

If you count a battle's duration by the number of provokes you perform from start to end (that's what I do, I'm weird):
Bash and Sentinel seem to barely manage to last through 1 and a half provokes (ie. 45 secs), while Rampart and Warcry can probably last through a little more than 2 provokes.

And yes, when the monster hits you, you lose hate from your hate meter.


Enmity+
I believe it's both. I think you start with a higher hate meter because once while helping out on a Beadeaux coffer key, a group of melees and I were huddled together when we got aggroed by a Platinum Quadav. I didn't really see it coming so I was late getting a provoke but it was already attacking me (not the others). This happened at least twice as far as I can remember.

A lot of my fellow plds have mentioned that for every hit you successfully perform on the mob, your enmity+ will kick in. I don't know for sure but I believe it is true, because I've noticed that my physical attacks play a much larger role in keeping hate before AF and after AF. I hold hate significantly better when the brd does madrigal (accuracy up) on me and I don't miss.


CHR and provoke
This one has been discussed a lot of times and it's generally accepted that CHR affects the strength of provoke. This one is simple to test, provoke at the same time as another class with lower CHR and you'll notice where the mob goes to.

Also, the first provoke the mob receives is stronger than subsequent provokes within a certain timeframe (probably due to the spike of hate). Elidrin and I tried this out on Sand Lizards while camping for Amemet. One of us with lower CHR provoked first, followed by the other person with higher CHR. The mob still stuck on the first provoker. However on another occasion, after waiting some time after the first provoke the 2nd was able to turn the mob (proof of spiked hate).

Lastly, the hate from provoke lasts long enough to overlap the next, so if you chain provoke you'll stack hate (reason why it's so important to chain provoke). I once held off a Benediction at the end of a REALLY long fight (3+mins) by just chain provoking.

About the mob disengaging, it's probably some game programming and not due to enmity/hate. I think.

[Lan'Urk]

From playing PLD and NIN I noticed there is another factor to Hate deterioration... every time a monster hits you you loose some hate. as a PLD you dont observe that very much, but as NIN this is a very important factor. i just tried it out yesterday when i was playing WAR/NIN and a friend of mine was playing NIN/WAR in the same PT. we both would keep our utsusemis up not allowing the monster to hit us.... and the 3rd WAR would try to keep up with us but whenever he would get 1 hit, the monster would automatically turn back to us, w/o provoke or anything.

Although the main focus of a PLD is not to avoid being hit. but instead avoid being idle, cuz your cures will more than make up for the aggro you loose by getting hit. and from what i understand +enmity means that it adds to each aggro gathering skill giving you more aggro per action. im not 100% on this since i dont have my PLD AF3 yet, so its hard to conduct tests

I hope this info helps some, its mostly speculations but im fairly confident since I have tried most of it out.

~Lanurk

Edit: Sorry Kagi didnt noticed you had already said it ~.~ i should read the post more carefully.... i apologize

[imac2much]

Re: Paladin Hate Control; How hate works.

Much of this has already been discussed, but continues to be a hot topic of discussion since there is no concrete evidence. Although Whren lent her thoughts, I'll provide some tidbits myself.

-How does hate deteriorate over time? Can I toss all my hate skills at once at the start of a battle and still retian every point of hate until the end?
There are two types of hate... spiked and perpetual. Read the FAQ to learn more about this. Spiked hate from job abilities and non-quantitative magic (Flash) deteriorate over time normally. Damage (and magic damage/healing) don't deteriorate. You lose hate when you take damage as well. Also, the amount of damage you take and amount of damage other people inflict doesn't seem to be equally proportional.

-How does Enmity+ gear work exactly? Does it increase Hate per action, or using my scenario of a hate meter from above; does having more enmity+ gear start the battle with your hate meter with automatic points, as if a provoke had been used before the battle even started?
The rule of thumb is that it occurs with every action. Single digits of enmity are not that significant, as can be seen from the myriad of equipment that reduces or adds a single digit of enmity. Only as you do several actions will the small points of enmity accumulate and make a significant impact.

-If hate doesn't deteriorate over time, why do mobs disengage you after chasing you enough?
I believe this is because some monsters are sight based, and after they lose track of you, you are wiped from their enmity list entirely.

-How does Charisma tie into this, and has anyone done any experiements proving Chr = hate?
I may get some harsh feedback for this, but I refuse to believe CHR affects provoke. Yes, the majority of people assume they have some kind of relation, but not because there is any actual evidence: only because several people have said so. Why did this rumor start? Because our AF adds CHR... but if you notice other AF, they add useless stats to other classes as well. When I tested this with some +CHR equipment, I noticed absolutely no difference even with a difference of around 10 or maybe even more CHR. I think that Provoke scales with your own level somehow, but not from CHR.

[Loial]

The hate that deteriorates by a PLD receiving damage is significant. I don't think that you can play a numbers game with this though. Whatever relationship the game logic has for calculating hate is in no way simple and does not appear to be linear.

It certainly does not seem that a DRK gains 3 times the hate you do when he swings for 100 and you hit for 33. It seems that just hitting the mob is the biggest component of added hate and the amount that you hit for is the lesser component. Not that much less though.

As for damage received... I've had the benefit of tanking with Blink and Stoneskin up (via the SMN). Holding hate can be very easy or very difficult depending on your situation. Blink and Stoneskin alone can buy you 5-6 hits sometimes not even counting flash. During that time, you are relying solely on your abilities and Cures, if your HP isn't already full. But, in the scenario above, since you aren't receiving any damage, you remain high on the hate list without much use of your hate tools.

My experience with provoke's relationship to CHR has been identical to Rugal and Whren's. I've found it very wasteful to provoke shortly after another person's provoke. If you wait 10-15 seconds for the other person's provoke to "wear off" or deteriorate, yours will hold the hate again. I've done the CHR test as well and get the same results. I'd certainly hope provoke scales with us as we level. Provoke couldn't hold off a RNG at level 5 critting for 50+... if it didn't scale, then we wouldn't need to sub WAR anymore :p

[Arnda]

On CHR: I know a bard with +26 CHR and another with CHR well over +30. If CHR = Hate, it would have to be a static increase, not a decrease (the game wouldn't know whether you wanted more or less hate), and therefore these people would have +13-15 Enmity. To every action they take. Now think about how often BRDs do stuff; yet, I have no problem holding hate off a BRD, even when we're goofing around and they're meleeing for no real reason. Does that mean it doesn't affect Provoke? Not necessarily. But I don't think CHR = Enmity, because it would screw BRDs.

On monsters losing you: There are five ways of tracking in this game.

1) Sight
2) Sound
3) Smell
4) Magic
5) Low HP

1, 2, 4, and 5 will cause aggro, 3 is strictly for tracking purposes. As a general rule of thumb, if a monster uses sight to detect (beastmen except anticans, sahagin, and quadavs), and does NOT use smell to track (orcs use smell, yags and gobs do not IIRC), then if you get far enough away AND obstruct line-of-sight to the monster, it will drop you from its hate list and stop chasing you. As far as I can tell, though, there's no way to prevent the other aggro/tracking methods from working. I've never lost a Quadav that was on me, no matter how far I ran.

You can prove this pretty easily by aggroing a gob in Konschtat and running over the hills. If you crest a hill before the goblin reaches the peak, there's a pretty good chance it will lose you.

It may also be the case that you cannot have done anything to the monster to lose it. I never really tested it, but all the times I lost a goblin it had jumped me and I wasn't prepared for it, so I ran without engaging. I'm not sure you can lose something you've piled hate upon.

But this is all anecdotal.

[greysenn]

As far as aggro loss is concerned.. when pulling I've noticed a lot of monsters will disengage you if you keep them off of you long enough, provided they don't hit you. Once they hit you, they're stuck on you all day.

[Impmacaque]

I may get some harsh feedback for this, but I refuse to believe CHR affects provoke. Yes, the majority of people assume they have some kind of relation, but not because there is any actual evidence: only because several people have said so. Why did this rumor start? Because our AF adds CHR... but if you notice other AF, they add useless stats to other classes as well. When I tested this with some +CHR equipment, I noticed absolutely no difference even with a difference of around 10 or maybe even more CHR. I think that Provoke scales with your own level somehow, but not from CHR.

I simply refuse to believe Chr can be entirely useless to any class but Bst/Brd. My guess on the Chr issue is that we simply have no proof/official statements regarding it's actual usefulness, so like you've said we assume the AFs modifier = usefulness.

I also cannot believe that Chr *specifically* effects Provoke. If anything, it generates some sort of hate different from that of Enmity; to further slam that argument I'd like to note that Chr+ is on Paladin AF, not War AF. Paladin do not get provoke as a default ability, therefore it would make no sense that the Chr+ was on Paladin AF. Not to mention the various EQ I've seen modifing both Chr and Enmity, often times raising the former and lowering the latter.

A plausible theory would be that Charisma effects hate deterioration from abilities that provide Spiked hate. I've personally yet to see my Chr do *anything* for my hate holding abilities/provoke.

Also - are hate figures at all affected by your missing an attack against a mob/your evading an attack from a mob?

[imac2much]

Please, let's not bring other games into account when trying to give proof or anecdotal evidence about certain game mechanics. Also, like I said, let's not bring up the rather random stat bonuses from AF. As mentioned previously, several jobs' AF increase rather random stats... let's not jump to the conclusion that it means anything significant, because that's how this whole "theory" came into play from the first place, not from actual testing or knowledge.

However, I do like your theory that CHR may affect how hate deteriorates. But... it is still just a theory, with almost no way of testing. As for your questions ... missing an enemy gives you some hate, but hitting them gives more (regardless of how much damage you inflict). Evading a monster attack does nothing to hate, but getting hit by a monster decreases your hate.

[Kagi]

'AFs increasing random stats' makes me think of the DRK's mnd+. :sweat:

[Lan'Urk]

Arnda, if you dont mind me saying this, i think you missunderstood the CHR issue. we are advocating that CHR=strenght of Provoke, not Emnity in general. I personally not sure about this, I believe it makes sense, but I cant say that I have tried/seen it work. Although often times when me and a PT mate, Galka Samurai, go NM hunting, we do provoke contests and often i win, even with his emnity +2 from AF boots, but its not very reliable, cuz about 30% of the time I loose...so I dont know... but there is nothing wrong with speculations...just keep researching we may find a definate answers soon!

PS. I wish i was half as cool as you are Rugal ~.~
And Arnda, i will kidnap you to Ramuh and marry you *^.^*

~Lanurk

[Kagi]

I wonder if there are enough CHR- items to try the effect out. Best way to test might be to experience the effects of CHR change on yourself, because you already have a feel of your default, relatively high-CHR setup.

I find it hard to believe CHR doesn't affect anything very major.. we have a fair bit of it even without AF.

[Cade]

Doesn't CHR affect how well Killer passive traits work, and how well a Circle effect does?

Thats what I was lead to believe...

[imac2much]

Originally posted by Cade
Doesn't CHR affect how well Killer passive traits work, and how well a Circle effect does?

Thats what I was lead to believe...

Meh, most people in FFXI can be led to believe anything, especially if a higher level says it... even if it's BS.

I don't see how something like that could have been tested, so unless a dev stated it somewhere (nowhere I could see), it's PPPPPPPPPPPPUUUUUUUUURRRRRRRREEEEEEEEE speculation.

You really have to be careful about things that just cannot be plausibly tested.

Heck, I could probably make up some weird thing like, "CHR makes monsters look at you more often because you look better to them" or "CHR affects how easily monsters aggro you, if you are more charismatic, beastmen will leave you alone." I don't believe in this, but if I passed it around enough, some people would believe it I'm sure x_x

I don't think it would be THAT implausible that CHR doesn't affect much except BRDs and BSTs. If you think about it, CHR is a strange stat. It is the only stat which all races have the same value, except for Mithra and Galka because they're weird. Every other stat possesses noticeable variance between races.

I dunno, I still like the theory that CHR affects hate deterioration myself, but who knows?