Paladin Guide and FAQ

[Arnda]

imac is correct about VIT, but to put this in perspective...

...when he or I say that "VIT is better than Defense past the monster's Attack threshold," we're NOT necessarily implying that the return from VIT is a particularly spectacular one. VIT is a direct and linear reduction to base damage... a reduction of basically 1. Against something that hits for even 50 (which you will see by lv30 and it only goes up from there), a reduction of 1 is not much. Even with massive +VIT (rings/earrings/Gluttony/AF/etc.), you will only be shaving off enough damage to equal out to one up-to-date cure spell from your healer every so often. That's good inasmuch as that's our job, to take less damage and be more efficient to heal, but the return will not be grand.

It will simply be more than extra Defense gives you, which past the ATK/DEF=1 barrier becomes LESS THAN 1 PER DEFENSE, and indeed past a certain point less than 1 for even 5-10 defense. Thus, past a certain point you may find Phalanx Rings and their +20 defense (for two) don't shave 8-10 damage... whereupon +4/5 VIT rings (again, two) would be superior. But again, we're talking about all of 10 damage here. When we talk about the mathematic ideal defense, it's not going to be some grandiose difference between the ideal and the average PLD's VIT/DEF. It makes a difference, but it's very, very small.

Your ability to hold hate is much more telling than your statistical tweaking when it comes to being a tank. Yes, you will take less damage than most, and yes, it will be somewhat noticeable. But there is no magic +DEF/+VIT combo that will cut damage in half or anything.

Also, if Evasion only went up when you dodged, I sure as heck wouldn't be maxing Evasion every level after 3 fights.

edited for clarification

[BrotherRaven]

Fellow higher PLDs,

I may soon be able to buy a "Earth Staff".
It is a 2hand staff that among other things, gives 20% reduction in Physical Damage. Have any of you tried this? Does the reduction in dmg make up for being able to do low dmg and the lack of a shield?

[Kensai]

Just a thought.... but does the blind status affect evasion? I mean, without the earrings. I know that is hinders accuracy but if you think about it, it would make sense to hinder evasion as well. Hmmm... then again you can always look at it when you have blind and see that it does affect evasion... just a thought.

[dancingkat]

Is it true that the more you use magic, the stronger it becomes?

Is this true for paladins?

~ Awesome guide. I love it~

[Turpin]

Okay, here's a highly flammable opinion:

When I miss a critter, my Sword skill never raises. Nor do I gain Shield or Parry skill when I fail to block an attack. However, I do gain Evasion skill when I'm hit? Why?

I think Evasion pushes the damage curve to the left. That is, it not only opposes an opponent's Accuracy, it also lowers the maximum damage you take, whereas DEF lowers the damage taken with each hit. Otherwise, you'd think Evasion would only go up when a monster missed you.

Okay, destroy my feeble hypothesis.

[Sathington]

Hi Imac2much

I just wanted to say thx for this great guide and to the others that are contributing with some excellent information.

I have unlocked my paly quest last Friday, it was quite an experience. A LVL 74 DK told me I could do it all alone and he was right. I’m happy he didn’t help me out.

I manage to do it alone with some invisible and sneak items. I had to warp back to my HP only once cuz I was complete lost. My second trip was easy, since I found the real route to the Dwell. The smile on my face was priceless

It did cost me a lot though, about 25 000gil of items (3Stacks of SO and 2Stacks of PP), but it was worth every damn gill.

Anyhow, I just wanted to share my experience. Again, thx for the information.


later!
Sath

[imac2much]

Originally posted by Turpin

I think Evasion pushes the damage curve to the left. That is, it not only opposes an opponent's Accuracy, it also lowers the maximum damage you take, whereas DEF lowers the damage taken with each hit. Otherwise, you'd think Evasion would only go up when a monster missed you.

No need for flames at all, you brought up a very good point and in some ways it makes sense.

However, this is highly unlikely. Ask anyone who has PT'ed with a NIN tank. They have maxed out evasion AND they generally have more evasion than a PLD, but they get hit for a ton (if they do get hit).

Also, I already showed you the damage calculation... evasion is not listed in there ever.

Oh well, still a good point, and it does make you wonder why it's so easy to gain evasion skill...

[Turpin]

Okay, so I'm backwards

Originally posted by imac2much


No need for flames at all, you brought up a very good point and in some ways it makes sense.

However, this is highly unlikely. Ask anyone who has PT'ed with a NIN tank. They have maxed out evasion AND they generally have more evasion than a PLD, but they get hit for a ton (if they do get hit).

Also, I already showed you the damage calculation... evasion is not listed in there ever.

Oh well, still a good point, and it does make you wonder why it's so easy to gain evasion skill...

Disregarding your damage equation--which I see no reason not to trust, but for the sake of argument--could it be that I'm backwards? That DEF pushes the curve to the left (and ATK to the right), and EVA lowers the average damage taken within that curve (just as ACC raises it)? Let's say a critter normally hits for between 100 and 200 damage.

EXAMPLE 1: Your typical PAL has an extremely high DEF, but laughable EVA. His DEF pushes the curve waaaaaay left, so that said monster's damage range against him is only 0-100. However, that terrible EVA means he's more likely to take the 100 than he is the 0, centered around 70.

EXAMPLE 2: Rather than flipping out and killing everyone, a NIN decides to tank. He's a poor NIN, however, and has run out of powder for Utsusemi. Oops. His (relatively) poor DEF means he's getting shellacked for between 200 and 300 per hit, as the critter's superior ATK has pushed the curve to the right. Ow. His EVA tends to make it around 230, though that's little comfort. Time for Mijin Gakure; it's the only honorable thing to do.

I don't have near the experience of a lot of importers/expats/Pacific Rim residents on this board, so I'm talking out of my a** to a great extent. I think this would make some sense, though, and wouldn't be too far off the formulae in similar games.

[imac2much]

No offense, because I don't mean to flame, but I agree with you.... you are talking out of your hole Don't take this the wrong way, I'm just agreeing with you hehe.

It's a very interesting theory, but has absolutely no basis. Average damage is just that : the average or "center" damage value. There is no actual min or max of damage separate from your average damage... if you are being hit for 70-90 damage, most likely the bulk of your damage is in the 80's.

Anyways, this is all irrelevant. Let me repeat this:
Even with +30 evasion (+30 is quite a bit folks), there was no difference. Not just in evades, but in the amount of total damage I was taking. If you read my post, you'll know that I'm rather anal about things like these, and I analyze numbers and crap more than I should. If someone as anal as me can't notice any difference, I can safely conclude that if there even IS any difference, it's not significant and therefore not worth mentioning.

Unfortunately, things in this game do not run on how logical sense works... you have to experience these things to understand. Theory only goes so far.

[Turpin]

I see.

Ah. I had seen you saying that even with the +30 EVA, you weren't dodging attacks any more successfully, but I didn't see you saying that your average damage taken hadn't gone down. Wasn't sure you were looking at that as well.

Speaking as a former Guide in EQ, with access to some of the actual formulae through contacts at Verant, I can say--without talking out of my a**--that those formulae were often correct as far as they went, but also were often missing some data, or even failed to account for a "fudge factor." Not attempting to brag; I just wanted to explain why it seemed worth asking.

Excellent FAQ, by the way. I appreciate the time spent in making it.

[LordBiGGs]

i see what you're saying with evasion could mean not just whether you get hit or not, but the quality of the hit as well (more or less). i just doubt it. doesnt seem like it would make too much sense. i mean this would mean mithras would be takin as much damage per hit as galkas give or take a few. more to the point as you said before a nin taking the same damage as a pld. highly unlikely that evasion effects damage.

well, on to my point, regardless of whether agl really does much to help a pld, i still think i'm gonna go with drone earrings. pickings run a little slim for pld's in the earring department. especially if you arent galka or elvaan, since an mp boost of 10 wont do much for humes, mithra or taru. so i'm using drone at least until 51, then i think i'm gonna look into melody earrings for the +chr (plus 5 evasion on there too but as said before, it doesnt do much) but those are running about 120k a piece, i'm lookin into the wallet this isnt adding up good lol.

[Sanhime]

I2mac, what rings are you currently using? I'm currently using 2 chrysoberyl rings.

And about leveling GS, I've neglected to level GS in the past, so I'm very weak with it. I'm not sure how to follow the chart you provide, because I'm currently lv54 but my GS is 126. In this case, how should I read that chart.

[jingoro7]

Excellent thread, although I should probably stop reading it since I am at work ^^'

Just something I observed. Some of the high level Paladins I checked seem to be carrying a Shield & Spark Polearm combination.

Since all Spark Polearm are one handed, when combined with a shield and batteries for additional electricity damage plus the WS Pentra Thrust, would this make up for Paladine's lower rating in polearm?

Please inform me of your experiences with this combination.

[Grizzlebeard]

I'm curious as to what level I should cast aside my battle gloves and light soleas. At 21st level beetle armour only beats these two slots by 1 point of ac each but I'd lose +6 evasion and +3 accuracy. I'm thinking of keeping them till 24th when I can re-equip my chain again because that armour looks hideous when it's mixed. Yes, I'm a shameless fashion whore. :p

I've tried to find the thread regarding worn evasion items but have had no luck so far. What are people's opinions on evasion items and just how much ac can I effectively sacrifice before I'm going to start hurting in parties?

[imac2much]

Hi all, I'm back from my business trip, I'll try to get caught up.... not that anyone noticed

1) I switch between 2 Chrysoberyl Rings (VIT+3) and 2 Astral Rings... I usually start out with Astral Rings for more MP, as I use them and my MP keeps dropping (even with Refresh), I'll switch to the VIT rings. Then between battles back to Astral Rings for more MP. Honestly I don't know how much good this does me, but I figure... why not...? Can't hurt.

2) Spear + Shield doesn't work anymore. Even when it did, it would be a HORRIBLE idea to use it in an XP PT. As an E rating weapon, you'll hit once every 10-20 attempts, and maybe even less. And when you do, it'll hit for 0. Plus your pentathrusts will either miss or do 0-10 damage. Not exactly worth it.

3) Evasion is nigh worthless. Even with +30 evasion from bat earrings when blind I don't dodge jack. Use equipment with more practical value, like DEF, VIT, MP, HP, etc.