Haste / Dual Wield Questions:

[Yygdrasil]

Considering I'm trying to gear myself to be a top notch NIN... I figure its about time that I learn about the caps on Haste and Dual Wield... don't you think?

I've read into it a little bit and I'm seeing a lot of formulas for how to calculate the cap to both of them. Can someone please explain to me in simple english what numbers I have to reach in order to cap out either/both of the abilities.

Is there a difference between Gear haste cap and spell haste cap? For example (pulling numbers out of my ass) say that I have 26% haste on my gear... total. I hear that 26% is the cap. Would stacking a spell on top of that be pointless? Will my haste never exceed 26% even if spells were added... or is there a seperate cap for spell haste? If so... what's the ABSOLUTE haste cap I can have... assuming I have GODLY gear and can actually manage to cap out everything. Where does it become pointless to add to it?

Likewise... what's the cap for dual wield (if there is one)? I know that by the time a NIN reaches lvl90, we get Dual Wield V. How close does that get us to the cap? There's a lot of gear I would like to get that increses DW... but if it's possible... I would like to cross some of them off the list if there would inevitably be overkill.

And finally... what is the max combination of Haste/DW? At what point am I attacking as fast as can be achieved?

If someone can explain to me how to calculate this... I would be forever grateful.

Edit: Also... a quick question about Ninja Tool Expertise.

Does this ability have a cap as well? It seems that with the right gear, abilities and merits... I can get pretty damn close to never expending any tools at all. Is there even a cap?

Merits 5/5 gives the ability a 25% chance to proc.
Yonin is assumed to increase the chance by an additional 25%
Spry Legs (augmented via abyssea trophies) can at best give another 5%
Koga Tekko/+1 gives another 33%
and lastly... Gosha Sarashi gives another 5%

In total... that's a total 93% chance to not use a tool while casting a ninjitsu spell. Are you freaking serious? It has to cap... if it doesn't cap... I know what gear I'm going after. Period... end of story.

[Takelli]

Re: Haste / Dual Wield Questions:

The max haste from ALL sources is at 80%. But I don't think there is a cap on gear haste though.

[Armando]

Re: Haste / Dual Wield Questions:

* Equipment Haste maxes out at 25%. In practice the Haste number on equipment is actually slightly lower than it says because the game uses fractions of 1024 for Haste. So it usually takes "26%" in gear to really get to 25%. You can still go faster than that by adding Haste from magic effects or from JAs.

* Haste from magical sources (Haste spells, Marches) caps at 43.75% (448/1024 is the value the game actually uses.) Reaching that cap generally involves Soul Voiced March x2.

* JA haste caps at 25%. This group's basically Hasso, Desperate Blows and Haste Samba - the ones that don't affect recast timers.

All Haste adds by addition. For example 25% Haste in gear + 15% Haste from the WHM spell = 40% Haste. Dual Wield and Haste stack by multiplication. Your total attack speed with both things considered will be: Original Delay * (1 - Haste%) * (1 - DW%) For example, if you're swinging a pair of 240 Delay weapons with 25% DW and 15% Haste, your final Delay (per weapon) is 240 * 0.75 * 0.85 = 153.

Here's the last catch. You can only reduce your delay to 20% of its original value, all things considered (or, putting it differently, you can reduce it by at most 80%.) For a player with no Dual Wield, this means that any Haste after 80% is pointless. For a player with Dual Wield, Dual Wield already counts towards that 80%, so you reach the speed cap with less Haste. For example, if you have 35% Dual Wield, you'll reach your speed cap with 69.23% Haste because (1-0.35) * (1-0.6923) = 0.2. In other words, you need 1 - 0.2/(1-DW%) Haste to reach the speed cap. Dual Wield is less desirable than Haste since Haste doesn't reduce your TP per swing, so if you have more Haste than that available, you would want to take off Dual Wield gear to take advantage of more Haste. If you had 80% Haste you might even consider single wielding, but I'm not sure if the increased TP gain would offset your reduced WS damage.

[Yygdrasil]

Re: Haste / Dual Wield Questions:

Cool. I hope you're right (edit: Nope... it caps at 25%) because the combinations seem endless. I'm taking a look at Dual Wield stuff right now on wiki.

Dual Wield V = 35% (Innate)
Suppanomimi = 5% (ear)
Ninja Chainmail/+1 = 5% (body)
Iga Zukin +2 = 5% (head)
Nusku's Sash = 5% (waist)
Iga Mimikazari = 1% (ear)

This seems like the max that you can get on any job. The total is 56%. I know that this setup can't be stacked with a lot of the haste setup... and that a healthy mix has to be struck to work effectively. The way I see it... the following setup would be... well... retarded as a haste setup. But not just retarded... 100% do-able for me... within the next few months.

Head: Iga Zukin +2: 6% Haste & Dual Wield 5%
Body: Ninja Chainmail: Dual Wield 5%
Hands: n/a
Legs: Iga Hakama +2: 7% Haste
Feet: Iga Kyahan +2: 4% Haste

Ear1: Suppanomimi: Dual Wield 5%
Ear2: Iga Mimikazari: Dual Wield 1% (Not going to... ust saying it was an option)
Ring1: n/a
Ring2: n/a
Belt: Bullwhip Belt: 7% Haste
Neck: Tiercel Necklace: 1% Haste
Range: n/a

Innate Dual Wield V: 35%

In total. This set would provide me with 50% Dual Wield (51 with the 1% earring) and the capped 25% gear Haste.

Combine this with the Haste spell for another 15% and Haste Samba for (at most) another 10%. Not even counting any of the other spells/abilites that could be used... thats a grand total of 50% (again... 51 w/ the stupid earring) Dual wield and 50% Haste.

I'm shooting for this set ASAP.

[Armando]

Re: Haste / Dual Wield Questions:

If you have 50% Dual Wield you only need 40% Haste to hit the 80% cap. You're wasting 10% Haste. Take off 10% Dual Wield. EDIT: Disregard that. You're actually 10% Haste short of the cap. 1 - 0.2/0.5 = 0.6 = 60% Haste. The set is fine.

[Yygdrasil]

Re: Haste / Dual Wield Questions:

Ok. Let me see if I have this right. Bare with me... math is not my strong suit.

Let's assume that I'm using the setup i described above... without any magical enhancements. So 25% haste and 50% DW.

My current weapons have delays of 227 and 180. So I take (227+180)/2 and that gives me 203.5 as my combined Dw delay, right?

So now I take 203.5 and dump it into your equasion. 203.5 * 0.75 * 0.50 = 76.31.

This reduces my delay to 37.5% of the original value. As you have told me... I can reduce it as low as 20%.

If I add the Haste spell into the mix... it drops the delay down to 61.05... or 30%.

Haste Samba for an additional 10%... takes it to 50.875... or 25%

As long as I'm combining the weapon's combined delay properly... I think I'm getting the hang of this.

---------- Post added at 10:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:47 PM ----------

If you have 50% Dual Wield you only need 40% Haste to hit the 80% cap. You're wasting 10% Haste. Take off 10% Dual Wield. EDIT: Disregard that. You're actually 10% Haste short of the cap. 1 - 0.2/0.5 = 0.6 = 60% Haste. The set is fine.

So with that set... I'm still 10% short of the cap? So I'd need march or something to put me over.

[Armando]

Re: Haste / Dual Wield Questions:

Here, I made some images to make shit easier to read. If you want to know how much Haste you need to cap your speed for a given amount of Dual Wield, use this formula.

Note that it gives a result of 0.8 (80%) when your Dual Wield is 0.

If you want to know your current speed, then use this:

So with that set... I'm still 10% short of the cap? So I'd need march or something to put me over.

Right. Because but you only have 50% right now, so you're 10% short. If you were to get that extra 10%, then you could benefit from further Haste by lowering your Dual Wield.

[Mezlo]

Re: Haste / Dual Wield Questions:

I armando and his mathy stuff...


Oh, and Yyg, not sure if you got any other advise on the ninja magic merits yet, but ninja magic is shit, dont merit it. Of course, unless, you have absolutely nothing else to do...

[Taskmage]

Re: Haste / Dual Wield Questions:

Bare with me...

I'm not sure we know eachother well enough for that.

[Yygdrasil]

Re: Haste / Dual Wield Questions:

Mezlo: I capped every other job and I have 20 merits laying around. If I don't use them on non magic they'll go unused. Combined with impregnable tower arms I was hitting ni' spells for up to 250 on Nms. I figure if I throw on 2 more atmas for mab and merit one san spell to max I could pull some nice numbers. At worst it'll be a cool toy... right?

TM: That's not what u said last night O.o

[Taskmage]

Re: Haste / Dual Wield Questions:

That's because there's not mutual baring in CMNM.

[Romyro]

Re: Haste / Dual Wield Questions:

Ok…sorry for semi necro but I have some questions.
I’ve always thought Bullwhip belt was better than Nusku’s Sash…after reading this over and over and finally understanding the math, I wanted to make sure.

With my gear I have
Sekka+2 (Delay 201)
Ichi-an (Delay 227)
W. Turban (5% haste)
Dusk hands (3% Haste)
Iga Legs+1 (6% Haste)
Bullwhip Belt (7% Haste)
Ballerines (4% Haste)
Suppa (5% DW)
Nin Chainmail (5% DW)
Native DW Trait (35% DW)

I typically fight with a Whm friend and I’m usually /dnc, so is it safe to assume I have 20% more haste? (15 from spells + 5 from samba)

With BW Belt I have
DW 45%, Haste 45%

With Nusku’s Sash I have
DW 50%, Haste 38%

Using your final delay formula I end up with

BW Belt
DelayFinal = 428 * (1 – .45) * (1 - .45)
DelayFinal = 129.47

N. Sash
DelayFinal = 428 * (1 - .38) * (1 - .5)
DelayFinal = 132.68

So Bullwhip belt is marginally better at best right?
Now, I’m guessing that Nusku’s Sash would be better if I can get more haste from other pieces?
So lets say I got Iga head +2 and Iga Legs +2 which would add 2 more Haste and use Nusku’s Sash over BW Belt.

Puts me at 40% Haste and 50% DW
DelayFinal = 428 * (1 - .40) * (1 - .50)
DelayFinal = 128.4

So basically, if I can get at least 2%+ more haste in other areas… Nusku’s Belt > Bullwhip Belt?

Would having a Twlight belt make this a moot point because of the double attack+2?


…
…
…

To take it a step further, if I wanted to cap my haste with 50% DW, I would need 60% haste correct?
1 – (0.2 / (1 - .50)) = .60

Minus the 40 I have (Gear/sub/whmspell) means I would have the get the final 20 from a soul voiced Brd?
(this is assuming i have +2 head/legs)

[Yygdrasil]

Re: Haste / Dual Wield Questions:

Armando, I choose you!
...
*Armando uses "Math"*
...
It's SUPER EFFECTIVE!

[Mhurron]

Re: Haste / Dual Wield Questions:

Armando, I choose you!
...
*Armando uses "Math"*
...
It's SUPER EFFECTIVE!

Almost got off my ass to make that card today.

Almost.

[Yygdrasil]

Re: Haste / Dual Wield Questions:

If you could make it... and laminate it... I'll pay for shipping. Send it to me.