Ninja tanking 55+

[Maeru]

Hey guys,

I recently got Ninja to level 51, and I find that 40+ I'm able to hold aggro fine with a combination of Enmity, Evasion, and str/attack gear. As a taru I find that my melee hits are really really sad, but my ninjutsu tier 2 is hitting for over 100 a pop if I'm using the elemental wheel.

I've been told by people time and time again that 55+ ninja changes a lot and you have to gear differently...I've had varying opinions on WHAT I should be gearing for though. I don't need to be able to hold aggro 100% of the time but I'd like to do better than some of the nins I see only using Utsusemi >_>

Any input on ninja playstyles in exp parties up to 75 would be very much appreciated. I've heard that I should try to become DD ninja and I have some gear that would help my melee output (Merc kris, Horomusha Kote, etc) not sure what to wear and what my approach should be towards keeping hate though.

I've been told I shouldnt be using the wheel on Regular and Greater colibri because of magic reflect, is this true?

Thanks in advance for any constructive input.

[hexx]

Re: Ninja tanking 55+

Yes, regular colibri and up reflect ninjustsu as well, so using the well on them would just eat away at your shadows. I agree with the whole "DD ninja" bit after 55 although it doesnt start shining till 59ish+ when you get access to the haubergeon and a few other DD pieces of gear. Keeping hate through damage tends to work a lot better than by trying to avoid getting hit, but that was just my experience.

[Maeru]

Re: Ninja tanking 55+

So if the idea is to keep hate via DD, is there any way you can give me a list of gear I should be looking for to increase Melee DD, my previous two 75s are Bard and White Mage so I know very little about Melee gear.

I was thinking I might offhand Merc Kris for faster weaponskills, other than that I'm a little lost.

Is it possible for a Ninja to compete for 1st in the hate list with a Dragoon Samurai or Warrior if they're doing so through damage? I've seen some sexy NIN DD in meripos and stuff but no where near an equally geared SAM / WAR / DRG.

[ShadowHolyFlyingDragon]

Re: Ninja tanking 55+

In a nutshell, playing NIN as a DD is your best option to tank and keep hate off your party after 55. Go for DD potential, side up on Acc/Evade.

Though alot of people don't like using Yonin because of the accuracy loss, you can fix that with acc food and gear. I don't know the exact breakdown of which one is better - Yonin vs Non-Yonin, but I do know that I've seen NIN hold incredible hate using Yonin post 55 and with Hauby, etc etc. I think you would want to balance out your -evd and put enough enough evade as an alternative stat, but really, if you just watch your shadows, you can do ok. There's nothing you can do about Pecking Flurry except keep up your def during those times, but that's alot of ja hashing.

PLDs have to change gear to go DD later on post 60 and so NIN would have to as well. Kinda cool that NIN can actually do decent damage as their class and still tank as well.

[hexx]

Re: Ninja tanking 55+

PLDs have to change gear to go DD later on post 60

No sir, PLD dont NEED to change to DD mode, since they have more hate holding JA's than NINs do (Yonin is good, but not as good as PLDs). Lazy PLDs prefer to go the DD route and hurt their tanking ability.


As for gear, at 61+ is where you get better access to DD gear. I would say keep your Horomusha Kote's (O.kotes better but not necessary), use a hauby, spike earrings, STR rings for WS, etc. its been a long time since I got NIN to 75 but that was some of the gear I used to use. Ill check thru ffxiah to see if I remember what I used to equip.

[Armando]

Re: Ninja tanking 55+

No sir, PLD dont NEED to change to DD mode, since they have more hate holding JA's than NINs do (Yonin is good, but not as good as PLDs). Lazy PLDs prefer to go the DD route and hurt their tanking ability.

No, good PLDs understand that VIT is almost useless, the Defense stat is only useful up to a certain point and it's a PLD's LAST line of defense (shielding/Reprisal and Flash make a bigger impact) and that standing there hitting for near-zero generates less hate and wastes more MP than sacrificing some defensiveness to have a real offense.

The bad ones cling desperately to the fact that doing damage isn't in the job description and that "if I wanted to do damage I would play a DD" instead of looking at it from an efficiency standpoint. PLDs need to have a certain amount of damage output to be efficient, just like NINs.

The only reason they don't "have to" is because they receive no pressure from the community. Many PLDs out there don't even know that's the route they should be taking past 50; the other 5 people in the party have even less reason to know, and even if they did none of them would kick a tank to find a better one unless there was an overabundance of them.

[Maeru]

Re: Ninja tanking 55+

Okay, thanks for all the replies.

Is it wise to keep a set of evasion gear for level sync parties? or am I free to sell it. I personally went for evasion and enmity up until the point, was that the wrong choice?

---------- Post added at 09:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:40 PM ----------

Also, How valuable is haste? should I be picking up stuff like Fuma Kyahan and swift belt along the way?

[hexx]

Re: Ninja tanking 55+

No, good PLDs understand that VIT is almost useless, the Defense stat is only useful up to a certain point and it's a PLD's LAST line of defense (shielding/Reprisal and Flash make a bigger impact) and that standing there hitting for near-zero generates less hate and wastes more MP than sacrificing some defensiveness to have a real offense.

The bad ones cling desperately to the fact that doing damage isn't in the job description and that "if I wanted to do damage I would play a DD" instead of looking at it from an efficiency standpoint. PLDs need to have a certain amount of damage output to be efficient, just like NINs.

The only reason they don't "have to" is because they receive no pressure from the community. Many PLDs out there don't even know that's the route they should be taking past 50; the other 5 people in the party have even less reason to know, and even if they did none of them would kick a tank to find a better one unless there was an overabundance of them.

Ur talkin to one of those tanks that stuck with being a turtle and tanked damn well Armando. I agree that having a DD set is good for all PLD, but it isn't mandatory, much less necessary. That kind of mindset is what sets average PLDs from the stellar ones though. I've rocked a hauby, as well as other DD pieces just to grab hate back with a well placed Vorpal Blade, but I dont full-time said DD gear either.

Also, How valuable is haste? should I be picking up stuff like Fuma Kyahan and swift belt along the way?

You can never go wrong with haste, for it helps bring down your utsusemi recasts as well as helps you build TP faster.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Ninja tanking 55+

Also, How valuable is haste? should I be picking up stuff like Fuma Kyahan and swift belt along the way?

Absurdly valuable. So yes, definitely.

[Clever Ninja]

Re: Ninja tanking 55+

Get as much haste as you can, it's one of NIN's most important stats. Get Fuma's, Swift/Headlong belt, a Zeal cap when you ding 60(they have gotten pretty cheap). The more Haste you can switch in to your Ni macro the better.

I recently dinged 75NIN maybe, 3ish week ago. You can start DD tanking as soon as good DD gear becomes available(earliest in my mind would be 34 when you can wear Peacock Charm + O. Kotes), the DD tanking thing honestly doesn't come into its own until 55(better at 60 cause of Jin), but truer at 65 when you get your last Dual Wield trait. Gear wise off the top of my head at 65;

Head: Zeal Cap until Panther Mask until Walmart Turban
Ammo: Bailathorn on Colibri or if overhunting/Bomb Core otherwise
Neck: Best accuracy piece you can get
Earrings: I kept Eva earrings because the +attack earrings also have -evasion, didn't want alot of it depending on the mob. Suppa when I could wear it, other ear is augmented +3 accuracy.
Body: Scorpion Harness/Ninja Chainmail depending on the mobs evasion/Hauby if you're not tanking or the mob is just jumping around(so like, rarely in my experience)
Hands: O. Kotes, these will last you from 34 to 72 when you get Dusk Gloves, and even then are good for WS
Rings: Accuracy
Back: Amemet Mantle
Legs: I used AF legs until I could wear AF2 legs. The +evasion at night was helpful and noticable to me.
Feet: Fuma

This is just for TPing at 65+. For Blade: Jin I pretty much wear the same gear at that level except for switching in a Hauby and switching out Fuma for whatever you can get(I use Gothic Sabatons for awhile I believe for the DEX, Fed. Kyahan for the attack is also viable among other things). NIN's Katana skill isn't that high and you're gonna need all the accuracy you can get while leveling to land all the hits. Also make sure you have an enmity set you swap in for spells and Provoke/Warcry. Cheap alternatives include Eris' Earrings(less than 20k per on both Hades and Cerberus), the Arhat set is a good source of enmity, the Gothic gauntlets + Gothic sabatons set if you have it. Mermaid's ring if you can afford it. + Ninjutsu skill gear is immensely helpful when leveling, having the earring + torque + AF helm for enfeebles on stuff like Colibri and imps is definitely noticable.

Honestly I've spent alot of gil on just things I swap in for NIN and even then I had a hard time holding hate in good parties(DRG in a COR + BRD party made me cry), I wouldn't want to imagine not having it in that same situation. Either way prepare to make friends with a good THF, cause a THF planting hate on you makes tanking so much easier and makes the fights alot easier.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Ninja tanking 55+

DD tanking thing honestly doesn't come into its own until 55(better at 60 cause of Jin), but truer at 65 when you get your last Dual Wield trait.

Oh, I don't know, I think DD tanking starts at Lv.40, when the Ni level elemental wheel becomes available.

Lv.45~48 example:

Damage Summary
Player...............Total.Dmg...Damage.%...Melee.Dmg...Range.Dmg...Abil..Dmg..WSkill.Dmg...Spell.Dmg..Other.Dmg
WHM/BLM ....................11.....0.01.%...........0...........0...........0...........0..........11..........0
RDM/WHM....................336.....0.15.%...........0...........0...........0...........0.........336..........0
Itazura (NIN/WAR)........52071....23.97.%.......22290...........0.........161........5422.......24198..........0
MNK/WAR..................47967....22.08.%.......35808...........0.........573.......10835...........0........751
SAM/WAR..................44392....20.44.%.......35100...........0...........0........9292...........0..........0
PUP/WAR..................27076....12.47.%.......22115...........0...........0........4961...........0..........0
Hannya (automaton).......41630....19.17.%.......14443.......18147...........0........9040...........0..........0
SC:.Compression.............31.....0.01.%...........0...........0...........0...........0...........0..........0
SC:.Detonation..............49.....0.02.%...........0...........0...........0...........0...........0..........0
SC:.Fusion................3021.....1.39.%...........0...........0...........0...........0...........0..........0
SC:.Liquefaction...........532.....0.24.%...........0...........0...........0...........0...........0..........0
SC:.Scission................81.....0.04.%...........0...........0...........0...........0...........0..........0
Total...................217197...100.00.%......129756.......18147.........734.......39550.......24545........751

[ShadowHolyFlyingDragon]

Re: Ninja tanking 55+

Ur talkin to one of those tanks that stuck with being a turtle and tanked damn well Armando. I agree that having a DD set is good for all PLD, but it isn't mandatory, much less necessary. That kind of mindset is what sets average PLDs from the stellar ones though. I've rocked a hauby, as well as other DD pieces just to grab hate back with a well placed Vorpal Blade, but I dont full-time said DD gear either.



You can never go wrong with haste, for it helps bring down your utsusemi recasts as well as helps you build TP faster.

I don't know man.. playing turtle can be done sure, but consistently? I disagree. When you have heavy hitters doing 1k+ damage from weaponskills, if you aren't keeping up your DoT, you really aren't going to consistently keep up with the DD if you aren't keeping up yourself. I know cuz I've tried it and I'm not a fvcking moron like most people.

IMO PLD should be required to change gears post game if you want to do well. But it's just an opinion.

I haven't seen a 70+ NIN hold hate well either, Yonin or no. That is, if there's no THF or /THF around. .... Or if people even care to /THF and put hate on the tank... usually ppl just don't care anymore.

As a side note, I've watched my 3-400 Vorpals turn a mob after someone BTL's (and after doing my regular Jas)

Oh, I don't know, I think DD tanking starts at Lv.40, when the Ni level elemental wheel becomes available.

Lv.45~48 example:

Damage Summary
Player...............Total.Dmg...Damage.%...Melee.Dmg...Range.Dmg...Abil..Dmg..WSkill.Dmg...Spell.Dmg..Other.Dmg
WHM/BLM ....................11.....0.01.%...........0...........0...........0...........0..........11..........0
RDM/WHM....................336.....0.15.%...........0...........0...........0...........0.........336..........0
Itazura (NIN/WAR)........52071....23.97.%.......22290...........0.........161........5422.......24198..........0
MNK/WAR..................47967....22.08.%.......35808...........0.........573.......10835...........0........751
SAM/WAR..................44392....20.44.%.......35100...........0...........0........9292...........0..........0
PUP/WAR..................27076....12.47.%.......22115...........0...........0........4961...........0..........0
Hannya (automaton).......41630....19.17.%.......14443.......18147...........0........9040...........0..........0
SC:.Compression.............31.....0.01.%...........0...........0...........0...........0...........0..........0
SC:.Detonation..............49.....0.02.%...........0...........0...........0...........0...........0..........0
SC:.Fusion................3021.....1.39.%...........0...........0...........0...........0...........0..........0
SC:.Liquefaction...........532.....0.24.%...........0...........0...........0...........0...........0..........0
SC:.Scission................81.....0.04.%...........0...........0...........0...........0...........0..........0
Total...................217197...100.00.%......129756.......18147.........734.......39550.......24545........751

This ends right at what level? Wasn't it like 50+... 55ish? Cuz then you start to deal with resists and such yes?... or no? Maybe you can gear up your Ninjutsu skill to keep this up? ... always wondered about that...... I wonder if the San-spells do any better in the 75's......

[Clever Ninja]

Re: Ninja tanking 55+

I prolly should have specified melee DD. The wheel rocks when you can use it if you sync 40-54.

This ends right at what level? Wasn't it like 50+... 55ish? Cuz then you start to deal with resists and such yes?... or no? Maybe you can gear up your Ninjutsu skill to keep this up? ... always wondered about that...... I wonder if the San-spells do any better in the 75's......

Ignoring the fact that Colibri resist magic, around 55 you'll notice the amount of damage you put out with it isn't as big as it used to be. Alot of people try to bypass this by swapping in staves and appropriate gear for the Elemental wheel(Ninjutsu Skill, MAB and INT). Even with that though by 60 the damage just doesn't compare. If you fight Colibri it's generally not worth it due to how they resist magic, and even then the damage wouldn't be spectacular. If you're not fighting Colibri, you can eat food and your melee damage would do better if you geared for it appropriately.

The San-spells are their own little niche. Most use it for soloing situations, the long cast time on San spells make them not too worthwhile for most party situations, but I've seen some people merit around 3 of them, and then alternate between Ni -> San -> Ni -> San etc when it comes to nuking at 75, or some fully merit 1 or 2 of them fully and weave it in.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Ninja tanking 55+

heavy hitters doing 1k+ damage

I often see this lament, but aside from RNGs, most of the "heavy hitters" players don't output 1k+ average for WS--not even at merit levels.

Not like the average PLD or NIN tanks can hold the monster if an 700~900 damage Tachi: Gekko or Raging Rush fires off 10 seconds into the battle, though. (I know my PLD cannot--not even when geared to the teeth with DD gear.)

Average Tachi Gekko from my last few pickup merit parties:
(I'm BRD for meriting; those are not my output.)

Apr 14: 817.11 (Colibri; w/ DNC on Box Step)
Mar 27: 776.52 (Mamool Ja; w/ COR on Chaos Roll, RDM on Dia II)
Mar 26: 689.84, 753.84 (Colibri; w/ COR on ever-changing rolls)
Mar 09: 619.50, 663.67 (Colibri; no other relevant support)

There's quite a bit of range, but sub-1k is the norm.

* * *

I don't know man.. playing turtle can be done sure, but consistently? I disagree. When you have heavy hitters doing 1k+ damage from weaponskills, if you aren't keeping up your DoT, you really aren't going to consistently keep up with the DD if you aren't keeping up yourself. I know cuz I've tried it and I'm not a fvcking moron like most people.

IMO PLD should be required to change gears post game if you want to do well. But it's just an opinion

What is "post game"? Anyway, ignoring that...

If the DDs are strong enough and the targets are weak enough (relative to the DDs' strength), then it won't really matter what the PLD does--the PLD won't be tanking much. Unless there's a strong TA+WS, that is.

I brought DD and defense gear and food to every party as PLD, pretty much from Lv.20 to Lv.71 (not to Lv.75, since I couldn't get parties after hitting Lv.71). From that, and leveling four other jobs to Lv.75 in parties, I ended up with some personal, general rules for PLD's gearing and setup for exp parties:

(0. The default posture is to be defensive--but always keep an eye on the condition and be ready to adjust the setup on the fly.)
1. Defensive setup saves MP, as long as the monster is beating the PLD. It doesn't mean MP always needs to saved as much as possible, but if the MP flow is problematic, go defensive.
1a. Defensive setup on the PLD does nothing if the monster isn't beating on the PLD.
2. Have macros--be able to switch between defensive and offensive gearing on the fly. At the very least, put some oomph behind Vorpal Blade.
3. If the PLD is barely tanking (or not at all) due to DDs' output, forget defense--go full offense, sushi/pizza and all.
4. A skillful PLD player will tank better on either DD or defensive setup than an unskillful PLD player--the preference between offensive and defensive PLD matters far less than the PLD player's skill.
4a. A strong TA+WS has more influence than DD or defensive setup for the purpose of keeping the monsters facing the PLD.

* * *

I haven't seen a 70+ NIN hold hate well either, Yonin or no. That is, if there's no THF or /THF around. .... Or if people even care to /THF and put hate on the tank... usually ppl just don't care anymore.

Since the two-handed update, NINs seemed completely outmatched by DDs mid-levels and up, especially on Colibri. I'd argue this makes the DD sets more important than ever--if the NIN spends less time per fight tanking, he'd better be outputting as much damage as possible to justify his slot in the party.

Yonin is awesome against IT++ critters. Otherwise, it's worthless--if not dying, don't bother with it.


* * *

This ends right at what level? Wasn't it like 50+... 55ish? Cuz then you start to deal with resists and such yes?... or no? Maybe you can gear up your Ninjutsu skill to keep this up?

Depending on target, should be good all the way to Lv.60, at least. Would have to gear for MAB, use elemental staves, and probably /RDM or /BLM for the wheel output to be stellar. According to some thread I've read on Allakhazam anyway.

IMO, Colibri's resist isn't all that big of a deal; the wheel pretty much ensures resist won't happen much for five out of six casts--the real problem is actually Colibri's MDB. That what makes Colibri sucky for NINs to nuke on.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Ninja tanking 55+

1. Defensive setup saves MP, as long as the monster is beating the PLD. It doesn't mean MP always needs to saved as much as possible, but if the MP flow is problematic, go defensive.

The problem with this logic is that, if the (more offensive) Paladin is doing it right, their gear should be sacrificing only minimal boosts in defense for significant boosts in offense, in such a way that the extra kill-speed gained from the Paladin's additional damage output should easily outweigh the small increase in damage taken, and would therefore actually ease the MP flow when compared to a full turtle in most normal situations.

Granted, defense should definitely a Paladin's first priority, but they should also not be blind to the benefits of trading, for example, 7 DEF, 8 MP, 4 VIT, 4 MND, 5 AGI, and 20 Evasion for 5 STR, 5 DEX, 10 Attack and 10 Accuracy. The fact that the latter is technically a lower-level body piece should not blind them, either. It's not like you're average Paladin, even geared offensively, is exactly hurting for Defense, either (W. Turban notwithstanding).