Taking Ninja... srsly?!

[Chromemage]

Calling all Ninjas!!!

First let me tell you that I (like so many do) didn't really take Ninja seriously through 37. If you don't know what that means, I'm not going into it. It should be self explanatory.

However, out of the complete BLUE i got the idea to take Ninja to 75. I shit you not, out of the clear blue sky I decided: Damn, it'd be really cool to start playing Nin seriously.

So here I am. I've now got it to level 45 and I'm realizing that I clearly am not maximizing the Ninja class in parties and would like to remedy that ASAP. Enter.... you.

So, last night I was in a party that was sync'd down to lvl 27. And I tried the whole elemental wheel thing and it turned out to just be a royal pain in the arse. I bought all these Ninja tools which cluttered up my inventory, I felt like I was on my friggin BRD (with 20 instruments). Pre-Ni ninjutsu, do you guys even bother trying to do the wheel? Or just Kurayami or Hojo? + an elemental maybe Hyoton (ice)? Hopefully now you're seeing how confused I am.

Even with the faster, more reliable Ni ninjutsu, I'm reluctant to cast a full elemental wheel. But since Ninjas are mostly tanks, is this necessary for holding hate? What about enfeebling ninjutsu? What kind of cycles do you guys do for this? I said cycles...silly me. I guess what I meant to say was "wheel".

Basically, I got discouraged last night (although we ended up doing pretty good) because I didn't feel comfortable with what I was doing. So I'd like to ask you guys to throw out your past experiences with Ninja.

Some of the larger areas I'm really interested in is: inventory management. What tools to always stack up on (toolbags?). What "wheels" or common cycles do you guys use when in parties? For other events? How do you maximize holding hate (other then gear) in parties? Do you -=EVER=- get random parties where they actually want you to DD?

So, so there you have it. A rambling on and on and on post. And I could go on forever unfortunately. Hopefully you took some time to read it, and in a much shorter form, can answer a couple of my questions.

Thanks for reading!

[Vevau]

Re: Taking Ninja... srsly?!

This is completely my own view, I didn't spend huge amounts of gil but didn't scrimp either taking ninja through the stretch you are facing (40-60 as it changes again 60ish) I carried:
TPing set of gear, acc mainly
WSing set of gear, mainly str
High Eva set of gear for last shadow/no shadows
Casting set with plenty of int, Moldy earring since I have it.
Emnity set for voke/zerk/swapping over casting set when casting for hate more than effect.

The Wheel is worth using post-40 unless you get resisted a lot, such as on Colibri in the 50s since you will have middling int and skill compared to rdm/whm/blm/sch/brd all of whom can use ele staves effectively (yes nin could and nin/blm or nin/rdm is a whole other topic) and your resists will come thick and fast until skill gets capped.

Since they are useful, I tended to use Hojo/Kurayami/Jubaku in that order since there is no 2nd tier of Jubaku I tended to be casting it while on my second set of shadows. The tools for those three and shihei are worth carrying by the toolbag, the elemental ones not so much but it depends how long you are partying for.

Sadly, like any well-played mage job nin will eat your inventory, and then your gil in tools but can hold hate pretty well and if you get bored nin/dnc is great fun to FoV on.

[Armando]

Re: Taking Ninja... srsly?!

WSing set of gear, mainly str

This is an awful policy for NIN WS, because you always have at least 2 hits, often 3 or 4, and none of them have high stat mods besides the Mythic WS which sucks damage-wise anyways. What you want is Accuracy to ensure you land your hits backed by enough Attack to not do fail damage, in that order.

Emnity set for voke/zerk

Berserk generates so little hate it may as well be a figment of your imagination. There's technically nothing wrong with this, but it's so not worth the hassle of gear swapping for Zerk.

Getting back to the OP's questions, no, you don't wheel pre-Ni, you just use them to ensure unresisted Skillchain damage (or on the pull for skill-ups). The damage is shit and so is the casting time; you'll just hurt your damage instead, since that's 4 seconds you didn't spend attacking and building TP.

Also despite being a tank you'll get best results gearing for Acc/Attack (just don't take -Evasion just because you're not gonna focus on it.) The purpose of this is two-fold; you hold hate better and the mob dies faster (both directly from your damage not sucking, and indirectly from DDs being able to do more damage safely.) Stockpiling insane amounts of Evasion won't help you if you can't hold hate.

Also Ninjutsu enfeebles, while good at what they do, aren't a significant source of hate. Don't cast them more than necessary, they'll only subtract from your attacking time. The back line should take care of the bulk of your enfeebling.

[Mog]

Re: Taking Ninja... srsly?!

Some of the larger areas I'm really interested in is: inventory management. What tools to always stack up on (toolbags?). What "wheels" or common cycles do you guys use when in parties? For other events? How do you maximize holding hate (other then gear) in parties? Do you -=EVER=- get random parties where they actually want you to DD?

From what I remember from leveling ninja, I mostly TP'd in a standard accuracy set. I didn't do any fancy gearswapping when I was leveling up, but if you can I would suggest doing it. From 55+, I mostly fought colibri and just spammed whatever was up. Ninjas have a harder time holding hate than plds at this level due to fast attacks and pecking flurry (more hate loss, less ways to generate enmity). That was the only real difficult part of leveling up from what I remember. But a lot of parties have thf, so that aleviates it. D:

From an HNM perspective, /drk works very well. Just basicaly boils down to spamming spells, most importantly stun, which a decent amount of cumulative and volatile hate. Even /rdm is realy good. Dispel is ridiculous hate apparently. I didn't know this too well until I asked a few people from my HNM linkshell.

And I can honestly say I've never been invited to DD in a party, sadly enough. Nin's pretty low on the DD list and even if you have really good sets of DD gear, you'll be performing the same/less as a samurai with average gear.

Now that I think of it, I haven't really used my ninja for all that much recently. It sucks because its decently geared too; oh well.

Also Ninjutsu enfeebles, while good at what they do, aren't a significant source of hate. Don't cast them more than necessary, they'll only subtract from your attacking time. The back line should take care of the bulk of your enfeebling.

While the enfeebles may not be as good as normal hits for enmity (Or maybe they are? I haven't really tested this), hojo:ni and kurayami:ni are very effective if they land. So this can be very useful depending on the level.

[Mezlo]

Re: Taking Ninja... srsly?!

What they said.

1 main point, is that in order to hold hate 37 (i think thats when you get ele: ni's) - 60, you'll nee dto spam the elemental wheel. Make sure you cast them in the order in which you make the mob weak to one element , then cast the element it's weak to. In other words, just make sure you follow the order of the wheel.

[Mog]

Re: Taking Ninja... srsly?!

What they said.

1 main point, is that in order to hold hate 37 (i think thats when you get ele: ni's) - 60, you'll nee dto spam the elemental wheel. Make sure you cast them in the order in which you make the mob weak to one element , then cast the element it's weak to. In other words, just make sure you follow the order of the wheel.

I would say 40 was my favorite level on ninja. The ni wheel is very fun to spam, and so effective too.

[hexx]

Re: Taking Ninja... srsly?!

Having NIN at 75 ill tell you this much: gear it like you would a DD, pure and simple. Once you hit oh........60 plus, back your Blade: Jin's with as much atk, acc, and DEX as possible (crit mod ftw). Eva will only get you so far, but again, post 60 most DDs start getting crazy when it comes to their damage output, so be ready to stop pulling your punches and bust out the decent DD that NIN is/can be.

[Kyrus]

Re: Taking Ninja... srsly?!

Okay, first i want to clear something up, over the years, Ninja has changed alot, and i mean ALOT!!!, im a 75 ninja and has been for 6-7 years now. Elemental wheel is ur best friend when tanking as ninja, being able to hold hate from sam doin a 1k-1500 dmg SATA gekko is insane. But, pre lvl40, the elemental wheel is not all that good, now here's some facts. in order to really make the elemental wheel successful, need to use them in order and macros. here's a few Examples:

Example: Katon > Suiton > Raiton > Doton > Huton > Hyoton back to Katon. Reason is, each ninjutsu magic lowers resistance to another ninjutsu example: Katon lowers resistance to water which is what element Suiton is. Also the ninjtsu magic also helps blms out by lowering an element if it lands makin blms get less resistant.

Also might want to consider taking drk to 37 if u wanna take ninja to 75. Ninja/DrK owns End game, can out tank a pld like no tomorrow and enough haste w/ brd songs u get a 20 second stun which is like a 20 second provoke. Now w/ TOAU out, elemental wheel is no longer option 60+ due to fact colibris reflect spells back at you and will get you killed. in Mount Zhaum would be good against the crawlers or non colibri mobs. Really ninja can be one of the best tank jobs out there if ppl just knew how to play the job. when i lvl'd u almost had to use the elemental wheel to even hold hate, i was able to hold hate from sams doin SATA gekko don 1500 dmg.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Taking Ninja... srsly?!

From an HNM perspective, /drk works very well. Just basicaly boils down to spamming spells, most importantly stun, which a decent amount of cumulative and volatile hate.

Stun is mostly VE, with a some amount of CE.

Even /rdm is realy good. Dispel is ridiculous hate apparently. I didn't know this too well until I asked a few people from my HNM linkshell.

Not exactly 'ridiculous'. It's a spell good for building CE, though, since it's 320 CE and 320 VE. Sleep does the same thing for less MP, but Dispel has shorter recast.

Once the NIN/RDM caps CE, should switch to Blind as the primary method to increase and maintain VE, with some booster Dispel/Sleep to negate any damage taken (which would mean CE loss).

NIN/DRK excels at VE, while NIN/RDM is better at building CE.

hojo:ni and kurayami:ni are very effective if they land. So this can be very useful depending on the level.

Hojo: Ni may be the strongest Slow (not counting Carnage Elegy, since that's technical a 'Song' effect) until RDM's Slow II (and only if pack with MND). Kurayami is also like that until Blind II (with major INT behind it), but who the heck has Blind II?

Both are decent enmity spells (80CE, 240VE) for the take it takes to cast them, FYI.

Also might want to consider taking drk to 37 if u wanna take ninja to 75. Ninja/DrK owns End game, can out tank a pld like no tomorrow and enough haste w/ brd songs u get a 20 second stun which is like a 20 second provoke.

No, Stun isn't as strong as a Provoke VE wise. It does have CE component, though, which is good.

Stun: 180 CE, 1280 VE
Provoke 1 CE, 1800 VE

Max spell recast time reduction (w/out Chainspell) is 50%, I think? You can get Stun down to 22.5 second, not 20 second.

NIN/DRK doesn't 'own' endgame at all. It's a competitive tank with a full support team, but PLD/NIN generally has more leeway when it comes to surviving damage. It's also easier to get away with PLD/NIN x2 without BRD than NIN/DRK x2 without BRD for when there are fewer people than optimal.

Think RDM/NIN may be the 'safest' tank, and it is probably the best CE builder amongst the major endgame tank builds. (When properly geared.)

[Clever Ninja]

Re: Taking Ninja... srsly?!

I'm leveling NIN atm now, it's 61 atm. I've spent alot of gear and such to try and maximize it. Way too many crappy NIN's on Hades that if you don't stand out, you won't get invited unless it's someones last resort. But anyway, let's see.

At 40, use the Elemental Wheel. It will be your main source of damage and, in turn, ability to hold hate until you hit Colibri. Don't bother enfeebling until you get the Ni versions, as a RDM/WHM/BLM can throw it up for the same effect and it won't take 4 seconds to cast. The Ichi version of the wheel is pretty crappy for tanking, don't bother. I don't generally like to sync below 37 just cause it reminds me of everything I hated about leveling NIN sub, and I have other jobs below 37 I'd rather level.

On gear sets, I have around 5(technically 3-4); TPing, Enmity, Ninjutsu/Enmity, +Eva(for shadows), and WS, but the WS is really just swapping my Scorpion Harness for a Hauby and my earrings. The Ninjutsu/Enmity set just swaps in Ninjutsu skill pieces over the enmity pieces in my Enmity set, since the Ni versions do generate a decent amount of hate for the time it takes to cast them, plus if you can get the enfeebles to stick it makes your tanking job easier.

Honestly leveling NIN has been a lot of fun, it's a lot easier to be seen as a good NIN compared to a good PLD, since if you're a good NIN you'll actually hold the mob for more than 5 seconds. Although a good SAM or DRG can ruin that quick, and there isn't too much you can do about it. All I can say is make sure you keep your skills CAPPED. I recommend going to skillup once you hit 54 and making sure your katana and ninjutsu are capped. Ninjutsu shouldn't be too hard to do since using the elemental wheel will give you several skillups. I ended up doing this at 54 and again at 60 so I could have Blade:Jin, which with a good amount of accuracy gear will be your best WS damage.

On the space issue, I'd suggest getting toolbags for Shihei, and for Hojo:Ni and Kurayami:Ni. I'd keep a stack of Jusatsu on hand just incase, cause I do cast it occasionally when I see the opportunity incase the RDM is a retard, but I wouldn't get a whole stack of toolbags for it for leveling. Leveling 40-60 is actually very cheap because of Yonin, the Tool Expertise procs have saved me a large chunk of gil. I'm losing more gil now since I'm trying not to keep Yonin up anymore due to the accuracy loss, it sucks enough trying to melee colibri WITHOUT food, no need to make it worse.

And also I don't carry the elemental Ni tools anymore, which saves space. It's not worth it on Colibri really, at 60 you get Jin, at 65 you get the last Dual Wield bonus which makes your melee damage even better, so you can quickly phase it out after that.

[Chromemage]

Re: Taking Ninja... srsly?!

What do you guys think of level 60-75? I mean I keep getting Bhaf Thickets groups and I'm having some issues:

1) Rangers keep getting hate. Lol plain and simple.

2) Its more or less solely blink tanking/provoke. Can't use anything against those dang birds (as a few of you previously stated).

[Mog]

Re: Taking Ninja... srsly?!

What do you guys think of level 60-75? I mean I keep getting Bhaf Thickets groups and I'm having some issues:

1) Rangers keep getting hate. Lol plain and simple.

2) Its more or less solely blink tanking/provoke. Can't use anything against those dang birds (as a few of you previously stated).

Colibri are generally harder to tank on ninja than pld. Pecking flurry always rips shadows and you lose hate when you blood tank (not to mention people WS at the beginning of the fight). One way of making it easier is having a good thf in the party. Birds are weak to piercing, and thief has access to assassin at this level. Having him trick attack you at the start of every fight or two helps.

[Clever Ninja]

Re: Taking Ninja... srsly?!

Even with a THF, RNG will prolly rip it away if they are foolish and Sidewinder too early. A good DRG or SAM can rip it off of you too depending on your gear. These levels honestly suck for NIN, I'm there right now and I'm not enjoying it. Can't land enfeebles reliably cause of Colibri being Colibri, can't eat food. Pretty much all I can say is get a THF in every party you do(there's a ton seeking on hades anyway) and just have everyone else subbed THF or NIN(preferably THF).

[hexx]

Re: Taking Ninja... srsly?!

Colibri are generally harder to tank on ninja than pld. Pecking flurry always rips shadows and you lose hate when you blood tank (not to mention people WS at the beginning of the fight). One way of making it easier is having a good thf in the party. Birds are weak to piercing, and thief has access to assassin at this level. Having him trick attack you at the start of every fight or two helps.

This right here. Post 60 a GOOD THF will be your best friend when leveling NIN. The majority of people leveling a DD job should by now know not to WS right at the beginning of the fight, but in case you do get one of those fucktards, A) replace him/her, or B) let him/her die so they learn their lesson.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Taking Ninja... srsly?!

I think tanking at those levels is mostly about keeping down the amount of damage the entire party take--keep the birds on you for as long as you can, and keep Utsusemi up as well as you can. TA helps, Elegy helps. I'd argue Hojo is worth a shadow, too. Make sure you have Haste/March if you build parties.

Once you lose the bird to RNG or melee, though, just concentrate on doing as much damage as you can before Provoke comes back up. (But, don't provoke at the end of the fight; save it for the next bird.)