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Re: I'm Annoyed By /NIN
Well, maybe YOU did. Let's review some old school (by which I mean not just pre-TAU, but pre-CoP; it would be unreasonable to exclude RoZ since some of the genkais didn't even come out until after RoZ) exp camps, which are still around today (and usually empty) if anyone bothers to use them: (Level ranges from Campsitarus, because I don't trust my memory on exact levels after several years.)
51-54 CN beetles
52-55 Boyahda spiders
53-56 KRT bats, scorpions, beetles
56-59 Gustav crabs+gobs (there are relatively few crabs in this camp, the majority of fights are gobs)
56-60 Teriggan crabs, pugils, raptors (towards the upper end of the level range, the crabs are no longer worth pulling)
57-59 Upper Delkfutt's bats and jotuns
58-61 Valley of Sorrows raptors and giant birds
60-63 QSC ants
60-63 Onzozo coeurls and gobs
62-65 Boyahda crawlers
62-65 Ru'Aun birds; not the most popular because most people at this level didn't have sky yet, but people who went there usually thought it was good. Now mostly hunted by BSTs if at all.
66-69 Gustav bones and pugils
67-71 Kuftal tigers, cockatrice, wyverns
69-72 Ro'Maeve (Moongate) weapons and golems
72-75 KRT bones, dogs and ghosts
72-75 Ru'Avitau weapons or golems (this and the above were the original roving meripo camps)
Crab dominated camps are omitted; I concede they exist, but they didn't have to be the only places you went and usually weren't. Kuftal (surface level) was hell for a *few levels* and then you could *leave*. (Actually, as the above list shows, you could avoid it entirely, but aside from statics, few managed to do so.) Memory just blows it out of proportion sometimes. IIRC, I personally camped all of those except for sky birds (not having sky yet at that level range on my first job), some in pickups and some in statics.
In any case, the last of the crab camps (Boyahda steelshells and other stuff) crap out before 70. After that you can't exp effectively on crabs even if you want to, except with solo/duo setups that can keep milking steelshells a while longer. Of course, you could argue that beetles and crawlers aren't much of an improvement on crabs. But that still leaves a lot of regularly used camps.
CoP added Bibiki, Uleguerand and Lufaise - no crabs there (at least at high exp levels), just gobs, dhalmels, raptors, demons, ahriman, taurus (yes, really), giant birds and the nastiest rams you never want to meet. Again, I've personally exped on all of those (although the rams only once, which was enough).
WAR, NIN and BRD are still the golden children that only grudgingly pollute their parties with the likes of WHM, SMN, PLD, THF or DRG - and even more rarely, PUP or BLM. Some of the favored jobs have moved - SAM is a lot more highly regarded after several rounds of major buffs, for example - but I wouldn't say that overall the dynamic of favored jobs and disfavored jobs has moved much.
At HNMs there's been even less change, and what change there is has been in the direction of even *more* /NIN reliance; even paladins are subbing it now (which they never would have seriously thought of doing before homam and w.turban and nine kinds of haste belt; and if they had done it it would have sucked).
And that's without even getting into the problems of handing out a free vermy and 10-15% exp bonus - but only in certain camps. (WTF were they thinking? Did SE intend the empire to lose besieged more often, or deliberately break their own game to sell copies of the expansion, or something else?)
Two, before COR. But are you saying you've seen parties leave town without one now? The only real difference on that front is that there are a crapload more BRDs, and a small handful of CORs (enough that you might get to party with one once a month or so, unless you are one).
DNC does a fair amount to reduce MP usage, but if you don't have a refresher, than any MP users you do have still have to sit. Which causes the dreaded "downtime" and breaks your infinity chain.
Maybe not, although I think the dagger update and 2h updates have done a lot to help on that front anyway. (I can only assume you're joking about MNK - they've never been below middle desirability and were the gods of KRT in its heyday. THF did much better in the old days when hate control was something you wanted and SC closer was an actual party role.)
But I'd damn sure like to go back to the days when you could fight something other than lolibri and wimps, and not have people laugh at your exp/hr and desert the party; when people joining a party would ask what the skillchain would be and expect there to be an answer; when enfeebling was a party role and not a joke; when tanks tanked and DDs tried to control their hate because they could get killed if they didn't; when a defensive player (or even two) was an asset to a party and not a liability.
And, to return to the original topic, when there was more than one subjob at 74+.
Originally posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten
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51-54 CN beetles
52-55 Boyahda spiders
53-56 KRT bats, scorpions, beetles
56-59 Gustav crabs+gobs (there are relatively few crabs in this camp, the majority of fights are gobs)
56-60 Teriggan crabs, pugils, raptors (towards the upper end of the level range, the crabs are no longer worth pulling)
57-59 Upper Delkfutt's bats and jotuns
58-61 Valley of Sorrows raptors and giant birds
60-63 QSC ants
60-63 Onzozo coeurls and gobs
62-65 Boyahda crawlers
62-65 Ru'Aun birds; not the most popular because most people at this level didn't have sky yet, but people who went there usually thought it was good. Now mostly hunted by BSTs if at all.
66-69 Gustav bones and pugils
67-71 Kuftal tigers, cockatrice, wyverns
69-72 Ro'Maeve (Moongate) weapons and golems
72-75 KRT bones, dogs and ghosts
72-75 Ru'Avitau weapons or golems (this and the above were the original roving meripo camps)
Crab dominated camps are omitted; I concede they exist, but they didn't have to be the only places you went and usually weren't. Kuftal (surface level) was hell for a *few levels* and then you could *leave*. (Actually, as the above list shows, you could avoid it entirely, but aside from statics, few managed to do so.) Memory just blows it out of proportion sometimes. IIRC, I personally camped all of those except for sky birds (not having sky yet at that level range on my first job), some in pickups and some in statics.
In any case, the last of the crab camps (Boyahda steelshells and other stuff) crap out before 70. After that you can't exp effectively on crabs even if you want to, except with solo/duo setups that can keep milking steelshells a while longer. Of course, you could argue that beetles and crawlers aren't much of an improvement on crabs. But that still leaves a lot of regularly used camps.
CoP added Bibiki, Uleguerand and Lufaise - no crabs there (at least at high exp levels), just gobs, dhalmels, raptors, demons, ahriman, taurus (yes, really), giant birds and the nastiest rams you never want to meet. Again, I've personally exped on all of those (although the rams only once, which was enough).
that forced a WAY more exclusive and elitist party setup than what we see today. RDM and BRD were mandatory back then - now we have COR, too and thanks to the adjustments and additions of SCH and DNC, they've become more optional invites.
At HNMs there's been even less change, and what change there is has been in the direction of even *more* /NIN reliance; even paladins are subbing it now (which they never would have seriously thought of doing before homam and w.turban and nine kinds of haste belt; and if they had done it it would have sucked).
And that's without even getting into the problems of handing out a free vermy and 10-15% exp bonus - but only in certain camps. (WTF were they thinking? Did SE intend the empire to lose besieged more often, or deliberately break their own game to sell copies of the expansion, or something else?)
Would you like to go back to the days where we needed one of those three refresh/dispellers for a PT or people wouldn't leave town?
DNC does a fair amount to reduce MP usage, but if you don't have a refresher, than any MP users you do have still have to sit. Which causes the dreaded "downtime" and breaks your infinity chain.
Would you like to go back to the days where getting 75 on DRG, MNK or THF was nigh impossible? I'd rather not go back to that.
But I'd damn sure like to go back to the days when you could fight something other than lolibri and wimps, and not have people laugh at your exp/hr and desert the party; when people joining a party would ask what the skillchain would be and expect there to be an answer; when enfeebling was a party role and not a joke; when tanks tanked and DDs tried to control their hate because they could get killed if they didn't; when a defensive player (or even two) was an asset to a party and not a liability.
And, to return to the original topic, when there was more than one subjob at 74+.
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