What to tell this guy...

[Eiyoko]

First off, I apologize for this rant, but I have no clue how to handle people like this and I need input. I dunno if this belongs in the Ninja forum or party ettiquite(sp?), but oh well...

So I was leveling my Dancer in this group the other night. We had two ninjas in the party and, for an Elshimo Island (Read: Yuhtunga Jungle) party, everything was going well. What I didn't notice was that the other ninja wasn't even using shadows, nor was he voking. The other ninja was doing all the tanking.

Of course, I wasn't paying attention. I was dancing to my heart's content.

Then the Samurai had to leave. That's fine, we got another samurai replacement. Then the ninja - the one whom was actually doing her job - left. We replaced her with a Red Mage. We thought hey, we have another ninja, he can tank now, we're fine.

I was apparently wrong.

I would probably have been half-way to 28 by now instead of just into 27 if it weren't for this guy.

He only voked when the mandy/gob ran all the way and smacked the WHM, which I don't really think I can blame him for, but he wasn't using any ninjitsu. That's right, he wasn't casting shadows.

He was voking to keep hate, but without shadows he was taking a real beating.

(Eiyoko) You need to voke more often. Don't wait until the WHM is getting smacked around.
(nin) k

So I'm trying to keep him healed when we do a few gobs, and when the White Mage isn't, I'm easily pulling hate. Maybe he isn't voking enough; how should I know, I'm trying to keep my sambas and steps up while healing when I can. I died three times total trying to keep the rest of the party alive during the duration of this party, and I'm not even at that part yet...

We gave the crackdown to this poor clueless ninja. His main is apparently a 55WAR, and both me and the Red Mage try to tell him how Ninja is supposed to tank. Voke more often, keep your shadows up.

(Eiyoko) Do you have shadows?
(nin) yes
(Eiyoko) Are you using them?
(Red Mage) No.

It kind of surprised me at first that the Red Mage answered for him, but I continued on anyway. At this point, mister lolninja can't deny he wasn't using his shadows since his cover was blown so to speak.

(Eiyoko) Why aren't you using shadows?
(nin) i didnt need them at first other nin was tanking
(Eiyoko) Well, now you're tanking, and you need to keep your shadows up. Otherwise I'm going to run out of TP quickly and the WHM is going to waste all his MP keeping you alive only to get himself killed.
(nin) k

So we continue. The ninja is casting shadows...every now and then. It's a slight improvement, but he's still Too Weak to be Worthwhile.

Eiyoko>> What are we supposed to do with this moron?
Red Mage>> He's just riding in this for the EXP

(Eiyoko) NIN, is this your main?

No answer. Later...

(Eiyoko) NIN, what's your main?
(nin) WAR55

If the answer is no, just say no. Come on...

Later the Red Mage says he's hungry and has to go when I level. He sends me a tell saying he would really stay but this gives me an excuse to bail on the {Too Weak} Ninja (which kinda took me by surprise, normally people bail only to benefit for themselves in my experience). He leaves, and I say I have to go because a friend of mine needs my awesomeness to get Fenrir. The Ninja applauds me; at least he's polite. I'm not lying, my friend really does need Fenrir...but I ended up trying to do Diabolos and dying five times to him. At least our Ninja tank there kept his shadows up.

My question is...what do you tell these people? If he learns how to tank well the party will go well, if we just boot him outright he'll never learn. On the other hand, if he never learns anyway...bleh. Help!

[Malacite]

Re: What to tell this guy...

Tell him that if he doesn't want to tank as a NIN he should put that in his search comment so people don't mistakenly invite him to tank and that tanking is the #1 reason anyone invites a Ninja.

Furthermore, tanking or not, this guy needs to start using Ninjutsu. If he doesn't want to spend the gil on the job he shouldn't be playing it in the first place. It's not fair to the party when one member isn't pulling their weight.

[Wise Donkey]

Re: What to tell this guy...

I would have booted him. You tried explaining it to him and he apparently wasn't getting it. NIN tanking is not that difficult of a concept in the basics of it, and a NIN should have a good grasp of it by the time they hit Kazham. If it were a Dunes party I would be a bit more understanding, but there is really no excuse at that level.

[Ellipses]

Re: What to tell this guy...

"This just isn't working. Would you like us to help you learn to tank properly, or should we just disband?"

If he says he wants to learn, stop and tell him what he needs to do, detailed and specific, and give him a few fights to figure it out. If he's obviously not trying after that, disband/kick/etc.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: What to tell this guy...

Strikes me as one of those "Its just a subjob" types of people. The kind that obsess over any additional expense that comes into play while levelling something for thier main job. They type that usually come out to Valkurm to tank in fishing gear.

In other words, the type I kick from my parties or the type that drive me solo my subjob levels because there are too many of them out there these days.

When I level a sub, I at least want to play the job so I can get some perspective on how its played, otherwise you miss out on what could be some insightful party mechanics down the road.

People like to act like they know it all, that thier rank, highest level, mission progress or endgame status actually means something in an EXP PT - it really doesn't.

[Tomato_Kai]

Re: What to tell this guy...

Yeah... I've had this situation. I can remember my first dunes party, learning what provoke did and how important it was. After that education, I've been a proudly contributive party member in many (and just about every one) of the forms since. Some people just need a good solid education before they can operate effectively.

Once you get it across how he's going to succeed - then either he swims or he sinks. Like most players, I swam. If he fails, take him to task for it. Really, it's not terribly difficult timing these things out. Let him know if he's going to fail in a job miserably, that the MNK, BRD, DRG, SAM, and BST jobs might be a little bit better choices for him, and that he also should find another party. Conversely, suggest he roll a nin/rng for better dd options. That will certainly help in the "not having to tank" portion of it, and I hear they have decent gun skills.

[Satori]

Re: What to tell this guy...

I'd give the guy a chance but after seeing no improvement I'd kick.

it disgusts me when people say "this is my sub, its not my main" its funny because you were invited to pt as the job you set as your main and each time we /check your ass it tells us its your main.

People are damn lazy in this game

[Neomage]

Re: What to tell this guy...

I'd give the guy a chance but after seeing no improvement I'd kick.

it disgusts me when people say "this is my sub, its not my main" its funny because you were invited to pt as the job you set as your main and each time we /check your ass it tells us its your main.

People are damn lazy in this game

Exactly. When you are leveling 28 NIN/ 14 WAR, 75 RDM is not your main job. 28 NIN is. I just don't get people who skimp on leveling support jobs... If you don't want to buy H.Q. gear, thats fine, but otherwise get EVERYTHING your job needs. If you do that properly, you will level faster, and get back to the job you actual love quicker.

[eticket109]

Re: What to tell this guy...

I always feel bad kicking people, but in that case I'd have to be pretty firm and kick them if they weren't willing to learn.

I had a case like that this weekend with a WHM. First off, keep in mind this was a level 44-45 party. This was also someone filling in for a static that I have on the weekends. Most of us have a few 75s so there can be some elitest tendencies in the group. I'm typically the nice one to give you an idea.

These are just some random snippets of dialogue.

whm > where are we partying?
me > quicksand caves
whm > where's that?
me > by altep
whm > where's that?

later...

(whm) so what spells will I need?

...

(me) also you'll need echo drops in case we fight ants
(whm) why?
(sam) because they'll silence you
(whm) oh
...few minutes...
(whm) where are echo drops on the AH?
sam > seriously?
(me) under medicines
...few minutes...
(whm) wow, those are expensive
(me) I can help, just get here so we can teleport
(whm) where?
(me) altep
(whm) I don't have that one

At that point someone that I tried to invite earlier unafked and accepted an invite. I cut the whm loose as nicely as possible. It was too early and I was in too much of a hurry to educate them.

With players like that, it's good to try to teach them what they're doing wrong but sometimes it's just not worth the hassle.

[Satori]

Re: What to tell this guy...

well the echo drops I wouldnt mind them not having. allthough they average at 7k on my server so its not that much of a big deal.

personally when I play as whm I carry

I stack of echo drops, silent oils and prism powders <----- the last 2 Inever leave my moghouse without them. maybe its because I'm only lvl 30 whm but sneak and invis seem very unpredictable and they are handy when in areas with magic aggro.

As for the desert, some people never have been there or have no idea how to get there also the maps for the zones you get from rabao "I think" so technically you'd have to get through then buy the map. I personally had a ls friend take me there. I tried following the maps on the wiki but one wrong turn and you can easily get lost.

I find in this game many people seem to forget that we all started off the same with no maps and no idea, We all learnt from being shown or self discovery. As somebody with limited experience as a mage whm30 blm20 rdm20 smn20, I can understand how apprehensive a mage could be about exploring like that.

Also if it was a new player and they wasnt too hot on where the level appropriate exp spots are then that would be where they learnt. I'd have welcomed the whm simply for the fact they were willing to ask for advice and be as prepared as they could be.

Regarding exp camps I see people using their higher level jobs to navigate tougher areas and then switch when they are closer. It seems many players forget starting out is hard take Cop for example, back in the day it was a hassle to do. Since the adjustments its supposedly easier but its just hard to get the people to do it especially if they have done it beforehand because they are stuck in the mindset that its just as hard as it used to be.

Thankfully my linkshell works on getting everybody up to speed and that means repeating many missions, it sounds like a pain but it benefits our group as a whole.

I apologise in advance I wasnt planning on an essay!

[Silent Howler]

Re: What to tell this guy...

well the echo drops I wouldnt mind them not having. allthough they average at 7k on my server so its not that much of a big deal.

personally when I play as whm I carry

I stack of echo drops, silent oils and prism powders <----- the last 2 Inever leave my moghouse without them. maybe its because I'm only lvl 30 whm but sneak and invis seem very unpredictable and they are handy when in areas with magic aggro.

As for the desert, some people never have been there or have no idea how to get there also the maps for the zones you get from rabao "I think" so technically you'd have to get through then buy the map. I personally had a ls friend take me there. I tried following the maps on the wiki but one wrong turn and you can easily get lost.

I find in this game many people seem to forget that we all started off the same with no maps and no idea, We all learnt from being shown or self discovery. As somebody with limited experience as a mage whm30 blm20 rdm20 smn20, I can understand how apprehensive a mage could be about exploring like that.

Also if it was a new player and they wasnt too hot on where the level appropriate exp spots are then that would be where they learnt. I'd have welcomed the whm simply for the fact they were willing to ask for advice and be as prepared as they could be.

Regarding exp camps I see people using their higher level jobs to navigate tougher areas and then switch when they are closer. It seems many players forget starting out is hard take Cop for example, back in the day it was a hassle to do. Since the adjustments its supposedly easier but its just hard to get the people to do it especially if they have done it beforehand because they are stuck in the mindset that its just as hard as it used to be.

Thankfully my linkshell works on getting everybody up to speed and that means repeating many missions, it sounds like a pain but it benefits our group as a whole.

I apologise in advance I wasnt planning on an essay!

For the OP though, I doubt this was the case. He had shadows and he knew how to provoke, he just didn't want to use them because it put a hole in his pocket.

[Aksannyi]

Re: What to tell this guy...

This past week a level 30-ish WHM in my social didn't have the Altep crystal but he got a party invite there so I figured "what the hell" I'll just escort him there. If someone didn't have it and I invited them to my party I'd probably tell my party to chill for 10-15 so I could help him/her get there. I'm pretty elitist oftentimes but for people leveling their first job at mid-levels you can't really expect everything.

I have been working on my NIN, and I tried my damndest to tank mandies. They suck, there's no way around it. I was happier when they pulled gobs, at least I could possibly count three shadows over a period of time than have them go down the second I cast them. *grumble* double attack *grumble*

That being said, yes, it's nice to let someone else tank for a bit, if you have the chance. 2 NINs tanking mandies is quite awesome. The NIN should have been back up tanking from the beginning, if you ask me.

Of course, the most fun I had on NIN was in Yuhtunga Jungle when the PL decided the WAR should tank and I should pull. 7k/hr on a level 25 job? Works for me.

[Murphie]

Re: What to tell this guy...

Honestly, I didn't really have much choice of whether to tank or not on my WAR in the jungles. It turned to me so often that the parties told me to just go ahead and provoke and at least keep it facing in one direction.

[Theyaden]

Re: What to tell this guy...

Normally in the jungles at least the ninja's should have been share taking must've driven the one that was working nuts since those mandies hit so fast. He should have been voking as soon as the 3rd shadow fell then the other re-casts and vokes once his third is down rinse and repeat.

Normally I'll give a ninja a break in the jungles since blink tanking mandies royally sucks, but this guy your describing wasn't even trying. A rdm or whm using paralyze and slow on the mandies and keeping it up makes it possible to solo blink them with a little attention paid by the tank.

When tanking I've noticed a trend of dancers subing nin and often doing the tanking low levels due to the hate spikes certain moves will generate and I believe it was drain samba, but haven't tried dancer so not sure what it was. Hopefully you don't run into any more like that nin.

[Telera]

Re: What to tell this guy...

Honestly, I didn't really have much choice of whether to tank or not on my WAR in the jungles. It turned to me so often that the parties told me to just go ahead and provoke and at least keep it facing in one direction.

That sounds real familiar. WAR-Telera was a hate machine, no matter if I went Defender or not. Eating food, or not. Ninjas couldn't do much to keep it off of me, which started to get on my nerves, vaguely, not at them, but at myself for fucking up hate.

I like(d) GA, but damn.

Eventually, yeah, I pretty much ended up being tank and the ninja just pulled it off long enough for the WHM to get me topped off, by which time it was usually looking at me again.