Katana Combos 70+

[Hankthetank]

Re: Katana Combos 70+

Its great question and I really don't know. I have always seen both dual weild and haste calculated as reductions.

Hmm, I think I got an idea.

[Hankthetank]

Re: Katana Combos 70+

/derail

Ok making a few assumptions I think I got a test for you.

Assumptions:

• Haste Spell is 15% Haste
• The Calculations for haste’s effect on melee swings is the same for Spell recast.

Raise III is a 60 second recast or 3600 Delay

1st method
15% haste (Haste Spell)
3600 * .85 = 3060
51 second recast or 3060 Delay

2nd Method
60 second recast 0r 3600 delay
3600 / ((60 *(1+.15)) = 52.17 Second recast

So in theory, if a WHM casts haste on himself then casts Raise III if the recast is 51 seconds it means the game calculates using the first method of (delay * (1.0 - haste) / 60

If the recast is 52 seconds its is calculated using the second method of delay / (60 * (1.0 + haste) )

My money is on the first method, but who knows. I think this sounds like a viable test to get your answer. At work can't test it myself, but if anyone else does I'd love to hear the result.

/derail off

Sincerely,
Hankthetank

[Amele]

Re: Katana Combos 70+

it's a good test.

I'll run it tonight after work and report my findings. although it is a big assumption that recast times are handled by the delay calculations and not a time_millis() comparison. - (it's a fair assumption).

the other tests all involve estimating averages from swinging a whole bunch at walls in excavation duty (hey! there's another idea)

see if in the time it would take you to get 100 swings, you get 117 or 115 swings (if you get 117 swings, then it's the first formula, if you get 115 it is the second formula)

use a lower delay weapon for the test, go on rdm/blm or something else with no delay reduction or innate double attack if you can, and report back! (with a 180 delay dagger, it should take approximately 5 minutes per 100 swings) you should have someone else along to recast haste on you at about the 2.5 minute mark so it doesn't wear off mid trial.

I'll try to run a similar test on sam/thf soon too with a different haste value (10 and 25%) to see if the numbers line up as well.

[little ninja]

Re: Katana Combos 70+

Dusk gloves = +3 haste. Sun-ate = +3 haste. turban = +5 haste, speed belt = +6 haste. Thats +17haste. Now if i get a haste spell cast on me. Thats +32haste which puts me over the cap. Then i add in my Sup earring, my koga pants, Ninja af body, and D.W from being a 75 ninja. I love to wear that stuff when i fart around, skill up, or farm. MY ninja just stands there and swings away.

Also what are you guys refering to when you talk about the "TP FLOOR" Its been a long time since i tp burned.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: Katana Combos 70+

Also what are you guys refering to when you talk about the "TP FLOOR" Its been a long time since i tp burned.

Back before an update that happened a year ago, there was a minimum amount of TP you would get back from a normal melee swing. If you look at wiki's info on TP calculations, you'll see a blurb down at the bottom about TP gain before that update. Normally, TP will scale down so that the faster the weapon, the less TP you get. But once you hit 180 delay, you got 5.0 TP per swing, no matter how far below 180 delay that you reached. Hence, 5.0 TP was the "floor".

Today, you'll get less than 5.0 TP per swing when your delay is below 180.

[Srxjo]

Re: Katana Combos 70+

Hankthetank please use the set font it was a pain in the ass to read what you wrote

[Hankthetank]

Re: Katana Combos 70+

Dusk gloves = +3 haste. Sun-ate = +3 haste. turban = +5 haste, speed belt = +6 haste. Thats +17haste. Now if i get a haste spell cast on me. Thats +32haste which puts me over the cap. Then i add in my Sup earring, my koga pants, Ninja af body, and D.W from being a 75 ninja. I love to wear that stuff when i fart around, skill up, or farm. MY ninja just stands there and swings away.

1. The haste cap for gear is 25%. Not including DW enhancements.
2. The haste cap for Spells recast is 50%
3. Hard to prove, and I haven’t seen any definitive numbers on it, but the haste cap for melee swings is said to be around 70%.

I can personally vouch for 1 and 2.

1 can be demonstrated by using a Shinobi earring, which gives 20% haste when in Red. This is almost a null point however, since other than BB monks most jobs will have an incredibly hard time getting 25% haste in gear.
2 can be proven with the fact I cannot get my Flash or Utsu timers to drop below, 22 seconds dispite wearing full haste gear, including haste belt, while getting Haste Spell and dual marches. Which is well over 50% haste.
3 I believe because I can confidently say that 20% in haste gear, haste (spell) and dual marches is an improvement over 20% in haste gear, haste (spell) and a single march. I can’t put and exact number on it, but I know it’s over 50%.

Also what are you guys refering to when you talk about the "TP FLOOR" Its been a long time since i tp burned.

LyonheartLakihmi said it perfectly, it was the minimum TP you get per successful swing.

The TP floor was also the main reason U/U was so powerful. U/U was so far below the floor yet by still getting 5TP a hit it was able to WS and get back to 100TP in about 25 seconds (less if you got a string of DA procs) pre TP patch. U/U users would spam Jin, which more than made up for the low base damage of the katanas. U/U is still a fast hitting combination, but now that the TP gain from them has been corrected, they seem lackluster when compared to their former glory.

Sincerely,
Hankthetank

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: Katana Combos 70+

I thought low delay weapons are rather useless since the TP floor removal thingy. So why is U-U still a popular choice?

Just to put things into perspective, the following is the TP you would get per swing for the following delay values:
120: 4.5 TP
180: 5.0 TP
450: 11.5 TP
480: 13.0 TP
530: 14.5 TP

Since 60 delay equals one second, we can calculate TP-per-second:
120: 2.25 TP/sec
180: 1.67 TP/sec
450: 1.53 TP/sec
480: 1.63 TP/sec
530: 1.64 TP/sec

As you can see, TP gain is much faster at 120 average delay than at the other delay values listed. Past 180 delay, the lower you can push your delay, the faster you can gain TP. Actually, this is true once you go below 450 delay. But between 450 and 180 delay, the change is gradual. Once you hit 180, TP gain changes very steeply.

TP burn efficiency is mostly about getting TP really fast without compromising your DoT. This is why Joyeuse and Ridill are such great offhand weapons for WARs while Kraken Club is viewed as more of a toy for WARs.

U/U manages to accomplish this quite well. Both weapons have decent DPS and the average delay is 121 with Dual Wield IV + Ninja Chainmail + Suppa.

Rai Kunimitsu ends up being perhaps choice #4 behind Senju, Unji and Unsho from that perspective. It's not exceptionally fast, and it actually has lower DPS than either Unji or Unsho, even if you account for the Firesday damage bonus raising base damage 1/8th of the time.

Hm....from those calculations. It seems like 5% in Haste is greater then 5% in Dual Wield then?

That's probably true just from the fact that increasing dual wield speed decreases TP per hit, while increasing haste doesn't. While increasing dual wield increases the speed of your TP gain, haste increases it even moreso.

[Amele]

Re: Katana Combos 70+

1 can be demonstrated by using a Shinobi earring, which gives 20% haste when in Red. This is almost a null point however, since other than BB monks most jobs will have an incredibly hard time getting 25% haste in gear.

yeah, most DD will use a haste belt (4 or 6%) b.haidate if they can wear (5%) walahra turban 5%. several jobs can also wear dusk gear, BRD/BST/NIN/RNG/SAM/WAR , who will gain a further 5% with hands and feet.

this is about 19-21% haste - you can hit a similar number with blu/drk/drg/pld/thf by using homam in addition to w.turban and a haste belt,

so 21% is 'typical' max a job can reach without resorting to multiple +1's, which will only get you to 23% at the outside.

mnk gets 25% with BB, sam/drg gets 25% with wyvern earring, and (amusingly) whm gets to cap with the right mix of hq blessed and ex gear. brd gets 25% by stacking a manteel ontop of the above 23%.

I don't *think* any other jobs can currently hit 25% but I wouldn't bet much on it.

[little ninja]

Re: Katana Combos 70+

So Is the TP floor figured in before or after the reduction of the weapons delay due to Haste, and D.W gear ?

Since it was corrected in 06. I was using U.U just before the tp floor was added. Nowadays i use it to mainly farm an goof around outside white gate. Its been so long, i probably don't even remember much of the original TP gains.

I almost never use Ninja anymore for LS events or meriting. But every once in awhile i will bring it out of retirement to shut up the noob nin's in my shell.

[Hankthetank]

Re: Katana Combos 70+

TP gain is calculated after Dual Weild reduction is, so dual weild does lower TPO per a hit. Haste however doesn't effect TP gain.

Sincerely,
Hankthetank

[little ninja]

Re: Katana Combos 70+

TP gain is calculated after Dual Weild reduction is, so dual weild does lower TPO per a hit. Haste however doesn't effect TP gain.
Sincerely,
Hankthetank

Ahh so another gimp for ninja i have overlooked all these months.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: Katana Combos 70+

Ahh so another gimp for ninja i have overlooked all these months.

Don't feel bad. This was one of the more subtle changes made during a particular update. In the update notes, it was simply listed as, "The amount of TP accumulated when attacking a monster has changed for both the player and the monster." Either you read that and got a burst of curiosity to go and figure out exactly what changes, or you read that and went "huh?" and moved on with your life. It was easily overlooked since the claim mechanics change was the big controversy in that update. I only found out about the TP floor removal because of some random thread either in my server's forum or the WAR forum.

If it's any consolation, THF got a much bigger whack from the nerf stick out of this change than NIN. THF really needed to spam WSs faster to compete. Thankfully, SE helped restore some power to THF by increasing base damage on many daggers in a subsequent update 3 months later.

[Amele]

Re: Katana Combos 70+

little ninja, just to clear some stuff up since I'm not sure we're all entirely on the same page.

in the beginning, all weapons below 180 delay gave 5 tp / hit (the same as 180 delay weapons) this is the 'TP' floor.

ninja dual-wield reduction has always reduced the tp return of weapons dual wielded but once the DW-reduction was high enough to take a weapon -below- the 180 delay point, additional dw-reduction had no further effect on the tp / hit, only making the weapons swing faster.

as part of the trend to reduce the ascendancy of x/nin, and rebalance the 2h weapons tp gain, the tp gain rates were adjusted in 2006, among some of the adjustments was the removal of the TP floor.

gain rates are still 'better' under 180 than at 180, but it's not as obvious as it once was. so basically, nothing got gimped, SE just fixed the tp floor advantage that certain jobs had over dark, dragoon, samurai, and great axe warrior.