Katana Combos 70+

[Zempten]

Hello everyone

I was curious as to a few Katana Combos and wondered if you could answer some of my questions. The following Katana Combinations are what I have in mind

A) Unji &Unsho

B) Fudo & Rai Kunimitsu

C) Fudo & *anything else 70+*

Type A combination for the type of player that likes to hit fast.
Type B combination for the type of player that likes to hit hard
Are these correct assumptions?

What other combinations are there? Which do you guys use and why?

Thanks ^ ^ Appreciate all responses.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: Katana Combos 70+

There's also Senjuinrikio. Break the latent on that sucker, and you could probably do Senju/Unsho (low delay offhand katana to try and take max advantage on the Senju).

[little ninja]

Re: Katana Combos 70+

Unji & Senju

[Zempten]

Re: Katana Combos 70+

Why Senju and Unji? Wouldn't Senji & Rai give like 11% critical hit and have the highest base dmg katanas?

[Omni]

Re: Katana Combos 70+

what about good ol fudo + senju? crit+ wins. even though that 6% only applies to the hand in which it's in, nin has very good crit %.

and lower delay weapons arent as crazy as what they used to be with the removal of the tp floor.

[Zempten]

Re: Katana Combos 70+

So U-U is out now?

[little ninja]

Re: Katana Combos 70+

Hmm not sure why i went Senji/unji. It has been so long since i started using that combo. I know when i play with my haste/D.W gear i will go U.U.

[Aeolus]

Re: Katana Combos 70+

Would'nt Senji/Unji be better as it has a lower delay overall for more crits/tp and the Str+2 and Dex+4 will help the chances of your Blade:Jins doing alot more dmg? Especially if youve already got a Str/Dex ws set up.

[Hankthetank]

Re: Katana Combos 70+

I personally, use Senju/Unji. I love my Senju and use a low delay offhand weapon to get maximize the attacking innings on my Senju. The bonus stats are nice for WSs, but I wouldn’t consider them the main selling point. WS damage wise I didn’t notice much of a difference when I switched from Senju/Fudo to Senju/Unji.

I have not played with Unsho/Unji yet. Unsho costs 2.5Mil currently which is more than I am willing to spend on a test weapon. There is a noticeable difference in damage between my Senju and Unji and I am not sure I want to lower my hit for hit damage by that much, especially on higher defense mobs like Mamools or Trolls. In Mire the difference isn’t as drastic and I can see U/U pulling ahead, but truth be told I hate meriting in mire.

I played with a Rai and didn’t care for it. Its only a 2% increase in hit rate for the offhand, at the cost of significantly lower base damage without the benefit of a low delay. I wouldn’t recommend it.

In the end, I am of the opinion that between Fudo, Unji, Unsho, and Senju it doesn’t matter too much. Get a Senju since it’s free, then pick any katana to offhand. Fudo is perfectly acceptable until you get a Senju. While I feel Unji is an improvement for the offhand, but at the cost of 1mil on my server there are better things to spend you money on that will make a more noticeable improvement. Fudo gets and unfairly bad rap, because its so cheap all bad Nins tend to use it.

Bad nins use fudo, but not all fudo users are bad nins.

Sincerely,
Hankthetank

[little ninja]

Re: Katana Combos 70+

I was lucky i got mine from the BCNM. At the time it was a bunch of us going to get it for the ninja's. I was lucky to use my seals when it dropped so i got it automatically. It's already dropping in prices now going for 900k. So its bound to go allot lower.

As for the other question. I think senji is 227 and unji is 201. thats 428 total delay. While U.U is 402. Now ad in Ninja AF +1, Ninja AF2 pants, and sepp earring. Now add haste on my head, hands, feet, waist and sometimes legs.

As for people who talk about crits. Senji has +6 if im not mistaken. My crit merits are capped, an i have around 20+25 dex. So im pushing as much crits as i can.

[Zempten]

Re: Katana Combos 70+

I thought low delay weapons are rather useless since the TP floor removal thingy. So why is U-U still a popular choice?

[Hankthetank]

Re: Katana Combos 70+

Just for fun. I’ve never calculated the different swing speeds of the different Katana sets.

60 Delay = 1 Second

Senju/Fudo Delay = 454
Senju/Unji Delay = 428
Unji/Unsho Delay = 402

Using Hauby:

Dual Wield IV + Suppa = 30% Delay Reduction
Senju/Fudo Delay = 454 * .70 = 317.80
Senju/Unji Delay = 428 * .70 = 299.60
Unji/Unsho Delay = 402 * .70 = 281.40

20% in Haste Gear + 15% Haste from Spell
Senju/Fudo Delay = 454 * .70 = 317.80 * .65 = 206.57
Senju/Unji Delay = 428 * .70 = 299.60 * .65 = 194.74
Unji/Unsho Delay = 402 * .70 = 281.40 * .65 = 186.55

Adding AF body instead of Hauby:

Dual Wield IV + Suppa + AF Body = 35% Delay Reduction
Senju/Fudo Delay = 454 * .65 = 295.10
Senju/Unji Delay = 428 * .65 = 278.20
Unji/Unsho Delay = 402 * .65 = 261.30

20% in Haste Gear + 15% Haste from Spell
Senju/Fudo Delay = 454 * .65 = 295.10 * .65 = 191.81
Senju/Unji Delay = 428 * .65 = 278.20 * .65 = 180.83
Unji/Unsho Delay = 402 * .65 = 261.30 * .65 = 169.84

Now lets say we swap out Byakko’s for Koga for a Max Dual Wield Build.

Dual Wield IV + Suppa + AF Body + Koga = 40% Delay Reduction
Senju/Fudo Delay = 454 * .60 = 272.40
Senju/Unji Delay = 428 * .60 = 255.00
Unji/Unsho Delay = 402 * .60 = 241.20

15% in Haste Gear + 15% Haste from Spell
Senju/Fudo Delay = 454 * .60 = 272.40 * .70 = 190.68
Senju/Unji Delay = 428 * .60 = 255.00 * .70 = 178.50
Unji/Unsho Delay = 402 * .60 = 241.20 * .70 = 168.84

Well there are some numbers for anyone who is interested in the delay differences. I think I did that right.

I thought low delay weapons are rather useless since the TP floor removal thingy. So why is U-U still a popular choice?

1. It's still offers increased TP gain, just not nearly as fast as it used to.


While the TP advantage isn't as pronounced as it used to be, U/U still makes for faster hits, and TP gain/delay is skewed towards the ends, with very low delay and very high delay weapons having a TP gaining advantage.


2. Swinging faster is often seen as better than hitting harder.


Comparing S/U to U/U, the delay differance is 180.83 Vs 169.84 or a differance of only about ~11 delay. While it doesn't seem like much, thats effectivly 5% haste in terms of swing speed.


In a camp like mire where the mobs are already very squishy, the differance between a Senju hit and a Unji hit might not be that big. So hitting faster might be more beneficial. At other camps, the differance might be more noticable and using stronger Katanas might be the way to go.


Sincerely,
Hankthetank

[Zempten]

Re: Katana Combos 70+

Hm....from those calculations. It seems like 5% in Haste is greater then 5% in Dual Wield then? Since Haste also affects spell timers and the difference between them is minimie. So If I had an option of Byakko Haidaite vs Koga. I would get Haidaite 1st?

[Hankthetank]

Re: Katana Combos 70+

Yeah, for the most part Haste is better due to the extra benefits of haste and the fact it doesn’t lower TP gain like Dual Wield does.

However Koga does offer a slightly faster swing rate so from a raw DD stand point, it is technically better, if you ignore the 15 Dex and the Acc Byakko provides.

It is also fairly important to note that it works out to nearly the same in situations where you can get about equal amounts of Dual Wield or Haste. When you can get significantly more of one it generally pays to keep stacking that.

Lets look at a soloing situation where you don’t get haste from a mage. Lets also say you have only the Turban and are deciding between Byakko and Koga:

Dual Wield IV + Suppa + AF Body = 35% Delay Reduction
Senju/Fudo Delay = 454 * .65 = 295.10
Senju/Unji Delay = 428 * .65 = 278.20
Unji/Unsho Delay = 402 * .65 = 261.30

10% in Haste Gear (Turban + Byakko)
Senju/Fudo Delay = 454 * .65 = 295.10 * .90 = 265.59
Senju/Unji Delay = 428 * .65 = 278.20 * .90 = 250.38
Unji/Unsho Delay = 402 * .65 = 261.30 * .90 = 235.17

Now lets say we swap out Byakko’s for Koga for a Max Dual Wield Build.

Dual Wield IV + Suppa + AF Body + Koga = 40% Delay Reduction
Senju/Fudo Delay = 454 * .60 = 272.40
Senju/Unji Delay = 428 * .60 = 255.00
Unji/Unsho Delay = 402 * .60 = 241.20

5% in Haste Gear (Just Turban)
Senju/Fudo Delay = 454 * .60 = 272.40 * .95 = 258.78
Senju/Unji Delay = 428 * .60 = 255.00 * .95 = 242.25
Unji/Unsho Delay = 402 * .60 = 241.20 * .95 = 229.14

The difference is far more pronounced here, because of the lack of haste options. If you remove the turban and compare just the Byakko Vs Koga you get the following:

Dual Wield IV + Suppa + AF Body = 35% Delay Reduction
Senju/Fudo Delay = 454 * .65 = 295.10
Senju/Unji Delay = 428 * .65 = 278.20
Unji/Unsho Delay = 402 * .65 = 261.30

5% in Haste Gear (Byakko)
Senju/Fudo Delay = 454 * .65 = 295.10 * .95 = 280.34
Senju/Unji Delay = 428 * .65 = 278.20 * .95 = 264.29
Unji/Unsho Delay = 402 * .65 = 261.30 * .95 = 248.23

Now lets say we swap out Byakko’s for Koga for a Max Dual Wield Build.

Dual Wield IV + Suppa + AF Body + Koga = 40% Delay Reduction
Senju/Fudo Delay = 454 * .60 = 272.40
Senju/Unji Delay = 428 * .60 = 255.00
Unji/Unsho Delay = 402 * .60 = 241.20

0% in Haste Gear
Senju/Fudo Delay = 454 * .60 = 272.40 * 1 = 272.40
Senju/Unji Delay = 428 * .60 = 255.00 * 1 = 255.00
Unji/Unsho Delay = 402 * .60 = 241.20 * 1 = 241.20

As a general rule Haste is better than Dual Wield enhancement due to ancillary benefits. But from a pure how fast can I swing standpoint, Dual Wield is generally better especially if you have access to very little haste gear.

Its also important to note if you are not 75 yet, Koga is a 72 piece of gear and Byakko is 75. So for people leveling Koga might be the better choice since they can use Koga while they level and eventually get Byakko at 75. But if you are 75, I assume you have access to a number of haste pieces and in this case Byakko will serve you much better.

Sincerely,
Hankthetank

[Amele]

Re: Katana Combos 70+

something I've always been curious about (and wondering if you know, hank)

I think it's pretty clear that delay reduction is applied as:

(delay * (1.0 - reduction) / 60

but what I've never been sure about is where haste fits. (this is a subtle question)
the first possibility is that haste is a reduction, like delay reduction.

so the equation would be: (delay * (1.0 - haste) / 60

the other possibility is that haste increases the rate that 'frames' are counted.

so the formula becomes, delay / (60 * (1.0 + haste) )

this is a subtle difference because these two formulas are not equivalent (example: 240 delay weapon and 15% haste - 240 * .85 / 60 = 3.4 :: 240 / (60 * 1.15) = 3.47~ )

my suspicion is that it is the first formula, since that allows the delay timer to be an RTC rather than software timed (making it 'immune' to lag) but I'm not certain, since the latter is probably the 'more accurate' way to depict an increase in speed.