Building the DD Ninja

[Aeni]

Warning: the comments below represent experience from the late 20s to early 30s in levels of a NIN. I could care less what happens at level 75 simply because it does not concern with my current situation. You've been warned.


Yah, you laugh. But what drove me and my friends to building a 3x NIN static was the fact that:

(a) You have about 15 NINs at your level LFP. Including your two other friends.
(b) People invite NIN to tank onry. 95% of the time.

With regards to (b), it's been commonly believed (regardless of whether it is true or not) that NINs in PT tend to take their sweet time killing something (lacking dps) while a PT filled with WAR/NINs would rip through mobs in record time.

So ... with that in mind, how does one go about building a non-tanking NIN? I've been experimenting with different possibilities and was fortunate enough to try a couple of things in my long time party today.

[1] Great Katana

Like a ghetto SAM. I think if I loaded up on +STR and +Atk/Acc, I should have a decent dps versus dual wielding low yield damage katanas. Skilling up was not an issue (I have played SAM, but even then, actually getting skillups with NIN is quite decent) and even with a full 30pt. difference in weapon skill, I didn't whiff a whole lot either (Although the sushi should be given credit for that in this case)

[2] Range Spamming

Using sub RNG to help out with range attack and accuracy (And give you appropriate WSs) I think this is also a front runner in melee DD options for a NIN (I've already done this for my SAM and it has been a blast, although in some parties, you might find yourself missing provoke from a subbed WAR)

[3] Jutsu Spamming

Also known as elemental wheeling. No comments on this as we were not able to get a full repetoire of jutsu tools to use these abilities. From what I have seen, however, skill level does play a large part in the damage you actually do. For now, none of us have capped ninjutsu, so I'll have to get back on this one (Ninjutsu skill starts off with a 10 level handicap)



Anyone has other options or builds that you think I should try? Mind you, for our purpose, really, there is no need for a "main tank" but I suppose if we do get into a "normal" 6-man PT, one of us can go back to subbing WAR and voking every 30sec...

[Omni]

Re: Building the DD Ninja

1) g.katana might give you bigger numbers per hit however, the g.katana that nin can use are always a lot weaker than ones that sam use. the beauty of nin is that they get to take advantage of dual wield. katanas all the way.

2) shurikens are good dmg. if you can afford throwing a bunch, go for it.

3) ichi elementals are lame. not a good source of dmg. wait til lv. 40. spend ~40 sec casting 6 elementals that will probably do a whopping 30 dmg total.

As far as equip goes, theres not much variation between most melee equips at this lvl. beetle earrings? str rings, spike necklace.. yadda yadda. all the same stuff across the board usually. you can use swords too at these levels.

[Aeni]

Re: Building the DD Ninja

1) g.katana might give you bigger numbers per hit however, the g.katana that nin can use are always a lot weaker than ones that sam use. the beauty of nin is that they get to take advantage of dual wield. katanas all the way.

I notice that with G.Katana, I was swinging about the same speed as dual wielding the katanas. However, you are right in that the damage from both adds up. Mind you, however, I was 30 skill pts behind in G.Katana and there were times when I would crit for 60+ dmg which as a NIN, you can only get from a crit'd Blade: Retsu (at these levels)

2) shurikens are good dmg. if you can afford throwing a bunch, go for it.

I plan to The damage is spectacular especially coupled with the fastest speed you can for any range attack.

3) ichi elementals are lame. not a good source of dmg. wait til lv. 40. spend ~40 sec casting 6 elementals that will probably do a whopping 30 dmg total.

Well, ichi elemental damage might not make it worthwhile casting. However, I noticed that only with Ichi you can continuously wheel. Ni has a 1.5 sec cast time, but a cool down of a whole minute. That means before you can wheel up, you'll have a 20sec or so downtime.

Versus Ichi, which is a long cast time (4sec) but a 30sec cooldown, making it possible to just "spam." Interruption is not a problem if one ninja does it while the other 2 ninjas try something else. I've seen Hyoton do about 20dmg or so by itself on Mandies so I thought maybe if you can wheel up a full two rotations, the second time around you should seek a slight increase in damage (20%?) But I'll report back on what I find when I do it. If anything, at least 2 ninjas can try to MB a jutsu. LOL

As far as equip goes, theres not much variation between most melee equips at this lvl. beetle earrings? str rings, spike necklace.. yadda yadda. all the same stuff across the board usually. you can use swords too at these levels.

I know one of us dual wielded swords on Saturday and that was okay for building a SC (Variety is best) But as far as TP gain, it certainly sucked harder than a pair of Katanas. I even out TP'd with G.Katana.

[Raitox]

Re: Building the DD Ninja

I die a little everytime I see a NIN using a GK, no matter what the circumstance.. Be a SAM/NIN, something.

[Aeni]

Re: Building the DD Ninja

I die a little everytime I see a NIN using a GK, no matter what the circumstance.. Be a SAM/NIN, something.

Class stereotyping. How about putting up some numbers before being so negative? All I wanted was some options. If you're going to be negative about something, the least you can do is provide something positive with it.

[Lmnop]

Re: Building the DD Ninja

1) 2 handed weapon stun WSs last quite long. Tachi:Hobaku lets you recast utsusemi:Ichi often. DD should be swell for now. I'd expect it to drop off ~30ish. At that point, I'd dual wield katanas with /war and Berserk as often as possible.

If you're going to use a sword, I don't see much reason to also offhand a sword. Offhand katana for higher acc/attack to keep your damage something resembling consistent. I could see certain levels maybe breaking this pattern (like dual cent swords, maybe. Though I also think offhand cent sword for boosts and main hand katana could be nice).

2) shuriken are good. Use the R.acc rings and stuff. if you're /rng, may as well whip out gun and get shooting before the acc gets unbearable. The greatest advantage of shuriken spam over gun is that you can melee quite effectively between throws. Old School RNG style. wtg melee sweetspot.

3) :Ichi damage isn't so terrible. resist rates are pretty terrible, but the dmg ain't bad. I'd equip on +INT rings and black silk neckerchief or whatever -- wear your best BLM attire. Like shuriken-nin, you can be meleeing between swings.

----

for shuriken nin and jutsu nin, you're looking at a mostly standard equipped NIN, just with a different playstyle. Instead of afk-attack, mash control D, or keep track of the wheel and walk down your macros. The melee swings in-between are just a bonus. In either case, I'd still bring my normal melee equips and macro them in for WSs. No reason not to.

I'd prolly use sushi for any RNG-playing nin. Pie would be interesting on jutsu spammer... quite. I think if you need sushi for GK, well I hate to say it but you should prolly go back to katana. Rice Dumplings should get you by once you get it fully skilled up.

[Aeolus]

Re: Building the DD Ninja

I die a little everytime I see a NIN using a GK, no matter what the circumstance.. Be a SAM/NIN, something.

Hate to be elitist but lol Nin15 Sam 36.

[Maju]

Re: Building the DD Ninja

With my capped ninjutsu skill at L25 I've never seen any of my elemental jutsus land for more than 11 damage. It could be higher with BLM sub but I still think simply meleeing with WAR sub will give much better results. At least I would often swing for almost 20 damage on mandies with my Hibari +1s and meat jerky.

GK also sounds like a bad idea. Weaker katanas than what SAM gets to use and only a C skill rating. Can't say I've tried it, though.

Shuriken spamming probably is your best bet but in my opinion it's too expensive and inventory intensive to be a viable strategy. I'd just use the best possible DD gear as NIN/WAR and melee away. Your damage shouldn't significantly fall behind other melees.

PS. Retsu cannot crit without SA.

[Raitox]

Re: Building the DD Ninja

Everytime I see a NIN with a GK I out damage them with mine by 15-20. You're better off with +1 katanas. Well to be positive I guess you get Tachi: Enpi, thats a great WS.
EDIT: You know even if I am a SAM36 I have partied with other Ninjas.. And guess what?! Thats in the 20-30 range. :O

[Omni]

Re: Building the DD Ninja

re: ichi elementals. i think thats the lamest idea to just spam them. if you are trying to do damage, spending your time casting ichi spells is just pointless. they usually land for 6-11 dmg. you can do that with each hand. yea you might be able to continously spam them but really, other than for resistance down effects, which i dont think many blm at that lvl care about, there is not any benefit from ichi elementals.

[Zaeeth]

Re: Building the DD Ninja

Gkatana - Not sure on that one, I just started leveling the weapon as I'm farming stuff and want to be ninja for it.

Shuirkens - Well those things just rock (I think this is the best damage tool you have in the levels you've listed)

Ichi Elementals - That's a hard one, ninjitsu skill is kinda like elemental skill for BLM as for my experience and what I've heard from others and read. Ninjitsu skill lessens resists not increases the damage. So the two stats you'd want to boost are INT and Magic Attack Bonus. Once I hit 47 I swapped out one of my dodge earrings for my Moldavite started hitting in the 90s unresisted with NIs. I know you won't do that much with the ichis but I sure you can pump out a bit of damage with them. With BLM sub I was getting +4 INT extra so one of you can sub that and spam the nukes. I'd keep two of you with /war to help each other with shadow recasts at those levels. As for wheeling the NI spells, you can keep those wheeled up, you just space them out more to keep up with the timers. The weakening effect doesn't wear off super fast so you can just space it to swing in between.

As for DDing later on, I've been invited to several parties as my NIN for DD in the 50s to 60. It was a lot of fun to try that out, I would MB and SC, Berserk when up and tank if the PLD needed a breather.

I wish you the best in your DD build. After all NIN was just another support melee with it started^^

[TenchiHawkwing]

Re: Building the DD Ninja

Rather than saying the same stuff everyone else has said, let me actually give you some insight as to what you're asking about(since I'm leveling NIN again... for the third time, and I'm doing the same thing as you)

Currently LV32 I went with as much DD gear as I could at all possible levels. .

I'll start, in which case I wore... (Starting from 20)
Gassan/Suzume -> Hibari +1/Hibari +1 -> Busuto +1/Hibari +1 -> Busuto +1/Fukuro -> Kodachi +1/Kodachi +1
Rogetsurin -> Attar Sachet
Mercenary's Hachimaki -> Empress Hairpin
Wing Pendant -> Spike Necklace
Bone Earring +1/Optical Earring -> Beetle Earring +1/Optical Earring
Power Gi -> Nanban Karignu
Royal Footman's Gloves -> Federation Tekko
Courage Ring/Courage Ring -> Courage Ring/Shikaree Ring
Traveler's Mantle -> Nomad's Mantle +1
Warrior's Belt +1
(I can't remember) -> Garrison Hose
Bounding Boots

As for food, I'd been using Rice Dumplings almost exclusively until Lv30 when I got berserk, now I use Bream Sushi(because it's cheap, I'd rather not buy more expensive sushi since I'm not getting as much out of the food as I would if I were higher level).

With this setup in Qufim I was hitting Blade: Retsu for over 100DMG most of the time... though if even one hit of it missed it'd be noticably lower(70s, etc).

When I got to Kazham, initially my DMG wasn't too impressive, but it was comparable to most other DDs, though DRGs made me look VERY bad in Yuhtunga... (DRGs own the low levels, I don't care what anyone says)

Finally got the Busuto on and things were looking better, not too great till I was able to equip the Fukuro in the offhand... then at 30 with Berserk I was tearing it up again! Had I not been duo tanking (having to recast Utsusemi, Kurayami, etc...) I'm sure I'd have been doing even better... Retsu doing over 100 again...

Then I hit 32... I'm going to be using these Kodachi +1s all the way to 37, so far they are doing quite well... good DPS and good WS(Broke 200DMG with zerk up finally with these babies. Only twice though... =/)


I throw Shurikens every once in awhile(Usually a couple after a WS)... not too often though.

[Aeni]

Re: Building the DD Ninja

Ichi Elementals - That's a hard one, ninjitsu skill is kinda like elemental skill for BLM as for my experience and what I've heard from others and read. Ninjitsu skill lessens resists not increases the damage. So the two stats you'd want to boost are INT and Magic Attack Bonus. Once I hit 47 I swapped out one of my dodge earrings for my Moldavite started hitting in the 90s unresisted with NIs. I know you won't do that much with the ichis but I sure you can pump out a bit of damage with them. With BLM sub I was getting +4 INT extra so one of you can sub that and spam the nukes. I'd keep two of you with /war to help each other with shadow recasts at those levels. As for wheeling the NI spells, you can keep those wheeled up, you just space them out more to keep up with the timers. The weakening effect doesn't wear off super fast so you can just space it to swing in between.

See, this is the thing. Most NINs I know who at around level 30 that tell me about their experiences with the elem jutsus don't have any mage job past level 10. So, as far as having elemental skill to sub (Via BLM) they don't have any hardcore proof of their failures making this work.

I also agree with you that ninjutsu skill controlls accuracy of the jutsu. With that being said, how many level 30 ninjas can honestly say that their ninjutsu skill was capped by then? Probably only 5% of the more dedicated ninja players.

So, my idea was to wheel jutsu and in between (cooldown between spell casting) probably throw a shuriken or two. Like a Ni user spreading out the wheel in a 50s rotation (10 sec interval, 50sec total from cast 1 to 6 ) I think that with 4sec in each of the interval, that leaves 6sec of something. Up close, this will come to about 1 swing of a dual wielded weapon or 1 gkt swing and 1 shuriken tossed. With capped ninjutsu, capped elem (from sub to that level) and a sub BLM, this might work handily enough. Since I'm level 30+ (15+ BLM), I can always ES on occassion an MB from the BLM's spell. Heck, guess that I have it, instead of throwing shuriken, I could mix it up and put out some nukes on that rotation drinking juices.

Thanks for a lot of responses, but I'm disappointed that no one suggested anything outside of what I suggested. Those were what I already tried out or thought of, but no one really gave out something new or "haven't tried, but sounded good" ideas.

[Armando]

Re: Building the DD Ninja

Thanks for a lot of responses, but I'm disappointed that no one suggested anything outside of what I suggested. Those were what I already tried out or thought of, but no one really gave out something new or "haven't tried, but sounded good" ideas.

Chakram spam? Weapons in the ranged slot tend to have skewed TP-to-Delay ratios since they don't strictly follow the 60 Delay = 1 sec conversion. On top of that, Ranged weapons get twice the benefit from STR and take half of the level difference penalty to ranged PDIF. Could be an alternative to shurikens.

I suppose the elemental wheel could work if you were to equip enough +INT. But considering you're losing 4 seconds per cast, I think you lose too much meleeing time to make it worth it, much less paying that much money in powders.

[Intensity]

Re: Building the DD Ninja

Concerning Elemental Ichi wheel:

Okay, the main reason this doesn't work is a timing issue. in the time you take to cast the whole wheel, you could have swung or thrown so many times you're losing alot in damage. At their best, they're a very low amount of damage taking into consideration the 7+ sec cast time. Trust me when I say this changes DRASTICALLY in the Ni levels. Once you get the Ni wheel, it's a whole new ball game. I tanked after 40 and had issues keeping my katana's leveled because I'd essentially just constantly spam jutsu spells. It will straight blow your mind being a Ninja from 40-55. I think that's where most higher level ninja's develop ther god complex of thinking they can solo anything because from 40-55, you can.