Re-envisioning NIN

[Raydeus]

Re: Re-envisioning NIN

For some of us, we look at Utsusemi, and see a mistake (it's far too powerful, and takes the balance out of the game).

So, do you fix the mistake, or do you change the entire [virtual] world bit-by-bit (no pun intended) so that mistake works?

How do I respond to this without writting something that is 3 pages long, I guess I'll go for the short answer.

The only ones who can judge if something is a mistake or not are the Dev team, if Utsusemi was not working as they intended then they would've taken far more decisive actions against it, yet the only two adjustments I can recall are the AoE and the Emnity loss changes (while leaving the level you can use and sub Ni untouched).

Not only that, but they actually said they were pleased with the way players were using the job and actually added more tanking oriented gear for NINs and made tools easier to carry.

So, the way I see they aren't changing the game bit-by-bit to make a mistake work, they are making changes little by little so the game goes where they want it to go. For instance instead of getting rid of Utsusemi they are working on PLD to bring it to a higher lvl of performance, and many other changes like that.

If players like or don't like those changes then it's up to them (the players) to judge if the job is fun to play or not, and make the decision to keep playing the job because they enjoy it or stop playing because they don't. Also making sugestions about how to improve the job you play is a good idea.

But like I said, I focus on wether I enjoy playing a job or not, not on what other jobs can or can't do. And going as far as to actually wanting a complete remake of a job just because I don't like it (or feel threaten by it) would be going too far out of my way to mess with other people's job and fun.



Bah I still wrote way too much.

[DakAttack]

Re: Re-envisioning NIN

No offense, but you don't sound like an educated consumer.

[Aeni]

Re: Re-envisioning NIN

The only ones who can judge if something is a mistake or not are the Dev team, if Utsusemi was not working as they intended then they would've taken far more decisive actions against it, yet the only two adjustments I can recall are the AoE and the Emnity loss changes (while leaving the level you can use and sub Ni untouched).

Or how about this scenario:


Company A develops a product, which we call G. G was working fine, until Company A decides to enhance their product G by adding a novelty to it. Let's call this Addition Z.

In the short term, many people are enjoying Addtion Z to their already existing G. With some nice reviews and a good marketing campaign, G reaches out to more and more customers. With more and more of G being sold, Company A starts to receive more and more concerns from existing customers.

Apparently, it was discovered that Addition Z has some how changed the mechanics in how G works. All of a sudden, where G was performing admirably in certain areas, customers are now noticing that those areas are now performing inadequately. However, other areas were vastly improved and in fact, many new customers are fully enjoying the performance so much that Company A pushes on forward in their plans to eventually add Addition Y and Addition W to take advantage of this new found performance.

However, with each Addition being added, the performance in some other areas start to worsen and gradually erode at the overall effectiveness of product G. Soon, G is slowly starting to be talked about as being "broken" Company A tries what it does to remediate the problems by trying to redirect consumers attention to the strengths and novelty of the newly released Addition W. Marketing and support is entirely focused on this.


===========


In the real world, if a product was found to be defective or not performing as well as it should, people stop buying said product. However, with MMO games, it isn't entirely easy and it's made complicated by a small but important factor which most people overlook. It's called "Investment of time."

[Raitox]

Re: Re-envisioning NIN

PLD's sub NIN. In fact, everyone sub NIN. Problem solved, no?

[Raydeus]

Re: Re-envisioning NIN

No offense, but you don't sound like an educated consumer.

If you are talking about me all I can say is I trust in SE and their Dev team's judgement way more (around 10 million times to 1 actually) to make decisions about the game than I would ever trust you.

But like I said your opinion about me doesn't really matter, specially since I'm aware that I'm playing the game to have a good time, and I'll keep playing for as long as it remains being fun and interesting.

If I was as unhappy about my job (and no other jobs cought my attention) as you seem to be I would've moved on long ago. After all, that's the best way to make an stand as a consumer isn't it? Just stop using the product and taking your money with you is the best way to show you are not a satisfied costumer.


Edit>

In the real world, if a product was found to be defective or not performing as well as it should, people stop buying said product. However, with MMO games, it isn't entirely easy and it's made complicated by a small but important factor which most people overlook. It's called "Investment of time."

I would agree, but I guess my perspective is different than most players, as I don't think about it as an investment of time. To me the time I spent playing I did it because it was fun, I got what I payed for while developing my character in terms of it being a fun activity. Kinda like when you watch a movie, the act of watching the movie is what you payed for, the memories you get from it count as well.

But after the movie is over you don't get anything besides the torned ticket.

Video games are the same, specially games like this one that you know will end one day and your character's info will be deleted because the service stops or you quit the game.

It's not like you are gonna get a certificate that validates you as a "Licensed RDM" or whatever job you took to 75 or spent the most time with.

So really if you play thinking that you are investing time then you need to start thinking about what you are gonna do after the game is over or you might suffer an emotional break down if your case is too extreme (I'm kidding eh? ).

But yeah I've been playing for more than two years now, and although it would be weird if my character got deleted tomorrow I would never think I lost my investment or anything like that. Since I already got what I was looking for.

And that is simply having a good time.

PS> Stop making me write so much!

[seq]

Re: Re-envisioning NIN

looks like you are trying to make the available tanks even LESS Mouser...

Recommendation: Change NIN from a tank job to a DD/backup tank pet job. This must be done in such a way that the substantial investment in gear that NINs have made is not invalidated, though inevitably some dislocations would occur. The proposed changes are as follows:

NO THANKS, as i said we need more tanks not more DDs.

Monk: Change Guard to check for skill-up whenever the MNK is hit, not when Guard actually processes. Give MNK a level 40 job ability called Chi Fist (3:00 recast, 0:30 duration) that adds a MND-based added-effect healing effect to its unarmed attacks that automatically processed on each hit. Chi Fist would heal an amount equal to the MNK's MND divided by 5 per hit. It would not cause extra damage to the target and would work even if facing undead.

sounds like a mini-bloodweapon.

all that could *fix* NIN is by making the NIN suffer an Attack-down when he have shadows up, something like 25% per shadow. i'm sick of NINs beeing able to Tank and DD at the same time (Blade:Jin 600-1K .... doesn't sound like a tank for me but it is a tank that deals ALOT of DMG).

note: i doubt any changes like what you said can happen, because NIN is played by ppl now. they played it the way it is not expecting any major update that'll change the job.

[Macht]

Re: Re-envisioning NIN

No one is making you write so much, it's of your own will you do so. The desire to explain in detail to hopefully give the rest better understanding of your viewpoint.

Now, as the thread about what type of MMORPG would you make if you could links too. One of the strongest things it points to is that old creations and such must constantly be checked against players and current gameplay. So it has to be constantly checked for fairness.

FFXI's goal is provide many job combinations and promote a group of them that best fit but others should fit ok as well. There's something wrong there when nearly every DD job has /NIN and nothing else, that's not promoting a group of combinations to use. That is a dead obvious and extreemly apparent balancing issue needing to be fixed.

[seq]

Re: Re-envisioning NIN

PLD's sub NIN. In fact, everyone sub NIN. Problem solved, no?

no, the problem isn't PLD tanking well or not.... it's:
PLD tanking well, but dealing no noticable DMG.
NIN tanking very well, and dealing DMG almost like any other melee in the party.

got it?

/cheer Aeni

[BurningPanther]

Re: Re-envisioning NIN

Sounds to me like S-E's initial answer was the most spot on. A while back, they altered shadows to lose hate when damage was absorbed. If Square really wanted to negate NIN's tanking abilities, then they'd make it so shadows reset hate every time damage was absorbed, as well as make the enmity gained from Ninjutsus minimal. They could further remove the enmity gaining attributes of various NIN compatible armors. Really, this wouldn't gimp the shadows concept, just make it impossible to keep hate without the aid of Provoke.

But none of that is the point, is it? The point is, S-E has stopped trying to find ways to bring tanking back to PLD. The developers announced at some point that they were no longer interested in forcing people to adhere to the original vision; they've decided to let people play how they like(i.e: specialized burn parties). Bearing this ideal of empowerment in mind, the path to balancing of tank roles lies in the empowerment of PLD rather than the nerfing of NIN. S-E made a big leap with the introduction of Auto-Refresh for PLD. Defensive boosts, natural Magical Defense traits, natural resistance traits to various status effects(and Provoke for PLD), these things will be what brings PLD back to the forefront: the ability to survive attacks better.

[Macht]

Re: Re-envisioning NIN

Sounds to me like S-E's initial answer was the most spot on. A while back, they altered shadows to lose hate when damage was absorbed. If Square really wanted to negate NIN's tanking abilities, then they'd make it so shadows reset hate every time damage was absorbed, as well as make the enmity gained from Ninjutsus minimal. They could further remove the enmity gaining attributes of various NIN compatible armors. Really, this wouldn't gimp the shadows concept, just make it impossible to keep hate without the aid of Provoke.
But none of that is the point, is it? The point is, S-E has stopped trying to find ways to bring tanking back to PLD. The developers announced at some point that they were no longer interested in forcing people to adhere to the original vision; they've decided to let people play how they like(i.e: specialized burn parties). Bearing this ideal of empowerment in mind, the path to balancing of tank roles lies in the empowerment of PLD rather than the nerfing of NIN. S-E made a big leap with the introduction of Auto-Refresh for PLD. Defensive boosts, natural Magical Defense traits, natural resistans traits to various status effects(and Provoke for PLD), these things will be what brings PLD back to the forefront: the ability to survive attacks better.

Good and fine with NIN as main. To many issues with it though when NIN is sub. Yes it's apparent they changed NINs focus to be another Tank, however it's tanking abilities is too strong when almost all DDs are using it or being pushed to having to use it.

[tdh]

Re: Re-envisioning NIN

I don't so much think such a drastic change should be made, however it was an excellent post! Lot of time and though put into it, and has spawned ~some~ intelligent responses.

I won't deny that some changes really are in order, but I can't really think of a way to impliment some sort of change, and not completely piss off everybody. I mean RNGs are still complaining about their "update." (Despite my opinion that they needed to be knocked down a peg or two.) That was one job, and a lot of people. How many people out there would pitch a bitch if /NIN was effectively destroyed? Keeping Duel Wield I hope, but their addiction to Shadows would cause quite an uproar.

This also would require us to address the lack of tanking jobs. WAR has taken a huge shift towards DD in the past two years. Going from a job that was doomed to sub job-dom for so long, became a huge DD option. Now we want to regear WAR to a tank again? Let's couple E Rated Evasion with a Hauby and a set of Woodsmans ring to guarantee WAR takes EVERY hit on the chin. They would have to rely on their DD to hold hate, and there would be no DW any more. Long delay two-handed weapon, all the while evading nothing.

MNK ~can~ tank, but as a Mage, I wish they wouldn't past Lv.20. Bath robes may be nice and comfy, not to mention they look pretty sweet on MNKs, but they're not very good for taking a Sickle Slash. The suggestion for the new MNK ability of Chi Fists sounds like fun, but we're taking a "squishy" job, and giving them a way to regain some HP once their ability is up. This doesn't help the mages who dropping MP at alarming rates to keep the poor MNK alive. They'd also have to adjust Guard to help MNK tank. (Some of you may wish they adjusted Guard anyway, but they would have to if they expected MNK to step up.)

Somebody made a comment about how PLDs are always spending so much time LFG, and adding another tanking job would just extended their time seeking. From my stand point, tanks are as hard to find as main healers are. In the late 60's in on my way to Lv.75, the SMN I staticed with and I had fits trying to find a tank. Refresher, and Main healer already on board, you would think we'd be golden. Many a night we just had to pray a party would take both of us, or just give it up and go do something else. I've had problems in the 40's finding a tank as well. (I guess it could just be me, but every tank I do find, seems appreciate my work.)

But I feel we need more tanking jobs. We currently have two who are odds. Well, more like one job feeling like the games step-child, and hating on the other. Either way, maybe a 3rd tank could help even things out a bit. We now have 3 Refreshers, and things appear to be working out just fine. I know I had my reservations about having to compete with another job for my party spot, but it seems to have worked out. Of course it could completely backfire and suddenly PLD gets no invites, but who knows?

[Lmnop]

Re: Re-envisioning NIN

I'm truely sorry everyone ; ; I ended up only skimming the last half of page 2 and all of 3. I'll read it more thoroughly when I have time.

In short: Ditto what Omni said. Pretty much everything he said, I agree with. He's a Ninja that understands PLDs, 'nuff said.

A few details of my very own opinion: I never want to see Utsusemi reduced to anything under a 95% chance of success. (I'll touch on that number in a minute) I guess my argument is prolly pretty weak, but I just think that if you make it chance, that Ninja tanking would be more like luck-tanking than blink-tanking. As is, tanking pre-Ni is "fun" enough when "good tanking" consists of how many times/fight you were lucky enough to parry/evade and how often Paralyze went off (anyone who's leveled NIN knows what I'm talking about when I say not evading a single hit is enough to make it so you can't chain your next blink). I say 95% because I wouldn't mind if any time a critical hit would process, it'd instead let the hit go through but not be critical (though maybe it would roll again to see if that hit was then critical). The effect would be something close to 95%.

When I said "what a damage monster WAR is" I kinda meant the whole War/nin package. As is, it's a DD with too good of damage mitigation, but it falls short in the tank department (it can work, but work is a word that most players don't apply to this game). It's true that PLDs seek much longer than NINs, but it's still true that tanks are hard to come by. I always like more options. Though if I designed the game, I woulda made every Melee DD a bit of a tank and made the emphasis of EXP fighting 3 mobs at a time that travel in a party (like Fomors).

Stuff

[Clever Ninja]

Re: Re-envisioning NIN

The problem is this; yes, NIN is probably abit better than PLD in terms of the method of tanking. However, we have to find a DECENT approach to this that can still keep NIN's as tanks, because if we strip their tanking ability, we'll have even LESS tanks than we do now, which is already a problem on some servers. One idea I liked was the addition of a mana bar to NIN's.

My idea expanded on that is for a small mana cost, NIN's can infuse a
blank tool with an ability like Utsusemi and then use it, giving the desired effect. This not only will put a limit on the endless tanking that NIN's can do as long as they have Shihei, and also make it easier to carry tools around in general, but also allow more freedom with the subbing of jobs like BLM(or RDM >_>)sub post 40, since it'll give more mana plus more damage on the elemental wheel, providing sufficient hate to hold aggro. I've seen NIN/BLM tank right now in the 40's and low 50's with expensive equipment, but with a change like this it'd be cheaper.

But we can't just go off and take away Utsusemi at this point; we can change the way it works to make it not as overpowered, but taking it away completely is a no-no.

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: Re-envisioning NIN

Commentary: I fully expect 99.9% of all NINs to hate this proposal. It's natural to not want to lose or share a space as one of the most valuable jobs in the game, but I think there is a real problem in game balance that can't be fixed simply by strengthening the other potential tank jobs and keeping NIN the same.

So, the OP thinks it's preferable to generate a monopoly on tanking throughout the game to the extent where only a paladin can tank and has no problem with creating even more competition for those 8 hour wait DD slots? The small tweaks to the other "tanking" jobs will do nothing to remove a paladin monopoly this aside from the fact they're not tanking jobs anyway. I wonder which class the OP plays predominantly.

I said it long ago and I'll say it again, make Utsusemi: Ni a level 44 ability. You cut off the legs of all the burn parties and restore xp/merit grinding to at least some semblance of where it should be. The handing out of the major ninja-defining ability to everyone at 74 is about as acceptable as giving every job Refresh or TH2. Once that has been addressed then the balancing, because I believe some is necessary. between ninja and paladin can go ahead without walls of white noise from warriors and red mages etc.

As to the OP's suggestions, I find them laughable.

[Amovorite]

Re: Re-envisioning NIN

Why change Ninja? Just give Paladin Provoke. And then watch the tanking job chaos ensue.