Re-envisioning NIN

[Celeal]

Re: Re-envisioning NIN

I would said:
1. Make Utsusemi: Ni level 38+....
2. Make Third Eye /recast timer to 15 seconds so that SAM/WAR or WAR/SAM can tank. Or make Thrid Eye /recast timer to 30 seconds and add Third Eye II at level 38+...
3. Increase Guarding proc-rate (like proc-rate of shield) for MNK/WAR to tank, introduce more cheap Counter+ gear.

[Mouser]

Re: Re-envisioning NIN

So, the OP thinks it's preferable to generate a monopoly on tanking throughout the game to the extent where only a paladin can tank and has no problem with creating even more competition for those 8 hour wait DD slots? The small tweaks to the other "tanking" jobs will do nothing to remove a paladin monopoly this aside from the fact they're not tanking jobs anyway. I wonder which class the OP plays predominantly.

I said it long ago and I'll say it again, make Utsusemi: Ni a level 44 ability. You cut off the legs of all the burn parties and restore xp/merit grinding to at least some semblance of where it should be. The handing out of the major ninja-defining ability to everyone at 74 is about as acceptable as giving every job Refresh or TH2. Once that has been addressed then the balancing, because I believe some is necessary. between ninja and paladin can go ahead without walls of white noise from warriors and red mages etc.

As to the OP's suggestions, I find them laughable.

Let me clairify why I think NIN should move to a more DD focused role. If Utsusemi is simply made less than 100%, there are three basic problems. 1st is that without shadows, a NIN, even with DEF food doesn't have a lot of defense to fall back on, so unless shadows process at a high rate, they would have difficulty tanking, and finding that balance point to make them as 'effective' over time as a PLD is insanely hard given the complexity of the game.

2nd is the player perception problem. If you just weaken NIN as a tank, people will likely adopt an attitude of 'NIN sucks now, get a XXX' instead. My proposal is to shift NINs' role entirely so that people will (hopefull) be more intrigued by the changes and be willing to experiment.

The 3rd reason is to actually increase tank diversity. If you made WAR/MNK, SAM/WAR, and MNK/WAR better able to tank at all levels, it wouldn't help. People would still demand a NIN or complain that they were 'settling' for a PLD or MNK or whatever. And trying to simultaneously bring NIN back in line with the other potential tanks and boost them up is a very difficult multvariable problem. BUt if you remove NIN as a tank, it's much easier to balance the remaining jobs since they all have the basic mechanic: some balance of offence vs defense and a way to mitigate, but not avoid damage.

PLD does it by high defense and Healing, but has very little offense (while geared to tank). WAR/MNK has better offense due to the accuracy from the Aggressor-Focus cycle but takes more damage. SAM has better offense due to Meditate and Store TP and can occasionally avoid a big hit with Third Eye, but also takes more damage. MNK mitigates damage with Guard and Counter and has the most HPs in the game. Because they all work in similar manners, but to different degrees, it's much simpler to adjust them to balance. Have a lot of healing in your party but not much offense? Pick a more offense oriented tank. Have tons of DD but not much healing? Pick a more defense oriented tank.

While it may seem backwards logic, the NIN is so good at tanking that it actually constricts the diversity of tanks.

As for my job, I avoided mentioning it since it has no bearing on the discussion, but since you ask, I'm a 75DRG. So as you see, I have no direct stake, other than the basic 'more tanks = more parties = more fun for me'.

In regards to my suggestions, they are just that, a jumping off point for a discussion, not a prescription.

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: Re-envisioning NIN

The 3rd reason is to actually increase tank diversity. If you made WAR/MNK, SAM/WAR, and MNK/WAR better able to tank at all levels, it wouldn't help. People would still demand a NIN or complain that they were 'settling' for a PLD or MNK or whatever. And trying to simultaneously bring NIN back in line with the other potential tanks and boost them up is a very difficult multvariable problem. BUt if you remove NIN as a tank, it's much easier to balance the remaining jobs since they all have the basic mechanic: some balance of offence vs defense and a way to mitigate, but not avoid damage.

You won't encourage tank diversity on any challenging content. Warriors, Samurai, and Monks aren't going to tank challenging mobs worth shit even with your changes. They lack the hate generation, both long term and spike, of a paladin along with the survivability gained from job abilities and healing power. Your proposal simply creates a one tank game with some melees that can stand in during xp parties and fulfill a role with a greatly reduced xp gain due to the fact they'll have to sacrifice their core roles, namely DD, to gear up in tank gear only to be a distant second to a paladin.
The only reason a ninja can compete for the tanking role with a paladin is because the ninja's way of tanking is completely different to that of a paladin, a ninja is an evasion based tank both via evasion and parrying skills and Utsusemi.. In a pure damage absorption setting no tank is going to ever compete with a paladin.

[Omni]

Re: Re-envisioning NIN

stop trying to make all jobs into hybrid jobs.

it doesnt solve anything.

[Macht]

Re: Re-envisioning NIN

stop trying to make all jobs into hybrid jobs.
it doesnt solve anything.

Totally agree, only hybriding that should occure is by what is choosen as the sub.

[Clever Ninja]

Re: Re-envisioning NIN

stop trying to make all jobs into hybrid jobs.

it doesnt solve anything.

QFT

Seriously, they can't propose enough changes to make other jobs tank without nerfing something. If they nerf a melee jobs DD ability just so you can get a few more tanks, we're gonna have a whole BLM monopoly again. That's not good. It'd be better just to add in a whole new job that is also focused on tanking instead, rather than gimp NIN just so PLD's can get more invites.

[Aeni]

Re: Re-envisioning NIN

It'd be better just to add in a whole new job that is also focused on tanking instead, rather than gimp NIN just so PLD's can get more invites.

This is what got us into trouble. Keep adding new jobs, let's see how SE is going to balance everyone. What a dumb idea.

[Aeni]

Re: Re-envisioning NIN

stop trying to make all jobs into hybrid jobs.

it doesnt solve anything.

Ahh ... news flash! We are already hybrids due to the subjob system.

Where in hell were you these past two years?

[raidenn]

Re: Re-envisioning NIN

I vote 'Barbarian' !

[Stooky]

Re: Re-envisioning NIN

Well, im leveling PLD atm, and I can feel the damage nin does to us. I see many nins get parties before I do and I have to sit waiting for a party for hours! In a week and a half I have gotten 4 parties and 2 levels. I have been looking for a party probley 50ish hours in the past week and a half and it is making me very frusterated. I love leveling PLD but since NIN is prefered by most people we dont get invites and on top of that im a Tarutaru, so I see all other races go before me. I can tank very well but people still dont invite me... This is more of a rant but somthing needs to be done to make NIN and PLD more equal instead of NIN being preferd, and PLD being second best in many peoples eyes... I hate that I have gotten a few invites that once im In the party I get a "Ahh a PLD and a tarutaru... no nins avalable I guess..." I dont know if this happens to many people but it has happened to me a few time...
Sorry for the rant...
-Stooky

[raidenn]

Re: Re-envisioning NIN

Happens to everyone.

Blms at the 60s are avoided too because the Xp mob (colibri) reflects magic back.
Drgs after the tp nerf at the 50s are avoided because the Xp mob (crabs) is resistant to piercing damage.
I still like Pld for holding hate though. I guess you might have just have had the wrong timing to seek a party. My party picked a Taru Pld last night over some Nins for Colibris.

[Stooky]

Re: Re-envisioning NIN

Maybe lol, just wish I could get some play time in instead of seeking time... War and nin I got to 37 so fast, but for pld its a lot slower to level lol... ^^"

[raidenn]

Re: Re-envisioning NIN

What level is your Pld now?
Yeah War is easy to get to 37.

[Macht]

Re: Re-envisioning NIN

Ahh ... news flash! We are already hybrids due to the subjob system.
Where in hell were you these past two years?

Actually I think he ment hybrids in the sence that 1 job started stealing specialities of other jobs. For example giving PLDs provoke, that's just way to powerful considering that provoke is prety signature ability to WARs.

The other would be giving MNKs a blood weapon like ability stealing it from DRKs. There is a clear line between them MNKs are skilled H2H fighters and a signature of theirs is the ability to counter attacks. DRKs are this games version of "Vampires" and rightly so should have blood weapon along with all their other absorb abilities.

This is what got us into trouble. Keep adding new jobs, let's see how SE is going to balance everyone. What a dumb idea.

For the most part the jobs that have been added are all in-line with SEs FF games which they've had over 10 previous FF games to get decently skilled at making and to know their positions fairly well. So they do have a vision to reach for, about the only job going into new terretory for them is probably just the puppet masters.

[Stooky]

Re: Re-envisioning NIN

Lol my pld is 32 o.o