Re-envisioning NIN

[Ziero]

Re: Re-envisioning NIN

Honestly the best idea I've heard so far to balance Nin tanking is to make Utsu a non-100% dmg blocker. Instead you make it a 'chance' to block/evade dmg based on your current shadow count. But in the end that would only do so much, so I figure adding two new abilities for Pld would even the playing field.

One ability would be a spell, that when in effect, would turn all dmg blocked with a shield to 0. In essance bringing back the older shield blocking system where no dmg was recieved when blocked with a shield. And the second idea would be a short recast (about 2 minutes) JA that would negate any dmg dealt from the next offensive spell cast on the target, and turn it into MP gained. Basically it would be Celes' Runic ability from FFXI, which would fit perfectly on Pld as it helps with two of Pld's glaring problems. Those being MP dependancy and the total inability to negate magic damage, two things nin does not have to worry about.

Those three changes would drastically change the playing field for tanks, without causing major overhauls to the way the game is played.

[Omni]

Re: Re-envisioning NIN

I wouldnt say nin doesnt have to worry about magic damage. At higher levels, almost all mobs have some sort of multi-hit/aoe ablity.

I think the issues with pld being mp dependant have been more than addressed. With SE's move to make their new expansion the bulk-head of all activities now, giving PLD auto-refresh and the choice of picking up Sanction refresh, gives pld an EASY 5mp per tick with your very basic 1 refresher PT. Add another refresher and the pld has more hp than he knows what to do with. Up to 8-9MP per tick with a 2 refresher PT.

Making the point that PLD are tied to their mp is like saying nin is tied to their utsu-timers. It's like, duh... its the job. what do you expect? Give pld the ability to cure themselves w/o mp? I've been able to PT with several pld lately in caedarva mire and frankly, they do very well. Actually, when fighting Imps, they do better than nin. with amensia, a nin has no way to generate hate. Pld can atleast flash the mob to gain hate, something that is very important to keep those high chains going.

Pld arent geared for offense. That's the whole thing. They are defensive. With that, you forgo offensive capabilties. However, you have several hate generating abilities, spells and gear. You have to understand, nin generate hate through dmg. Like I mentioned earlier, put a nin against a imp and see how hate gets bounced around so easily w/o provoke. Pld have no trouble at all even with hit with anemsia. Thats what they excel at. I just keep getting the feeling that people want to be able to drop big numbers on ANY job they play. I'm sure if you gave swift blade a dmg increase and youll have so many happy pld in haubies spamming swift blade. Remember what job you are playing. You are a defensive tank w/ many great hate generating skills. Not a drk that can take punishment.

I do agree with kariyna on changing utsu so that nin mains can still tank with an adjustment in parry skillups/procs and limiting how /nin uses utsu. This would help in getting the random player the ability to run around carefree with /nin.

The playing field is fine. Both tanks perform well, you just need people to know how to accomadate them. Changing player mentality is still the main factor imo.

[Ziero]

Re: Re-envisioning NIN

Well a decently geared DD oriented Pld can still do great dmg and with nin sub, hold hate and mitigate Dmg as well. The problem isn't about nin persay, it's about Utsu. As stated before, any job that subs nin gains a near invulnerability. And yes, many mobs have devastating multi hit WS and AoEs, but many of them can be absorbed by shadows. And just as many mobs have powerful single hit spells and abilities that can be completely negated by shadows, where a traditional Pld/War would take it right in the face. A nin never has to worry about AMs because they can be absorbed by shadows. But a Pld would take the full brunt of the attack.

Now I think both jobs are great jobs, infact I prefer the average Pld tank to the average Nin tank for many things. But there are some clear advantages to nins over Plds. Not everything will take place in the ToAU regions and not everything will have one or two refreshers, meaning that a Pld's limited MP Pool will start to show. Recast timers don't cause downtime, but limited MP does. And though being the *best* hate holder in game, being a hate holder who does great Dmg to kill the mob faster while taking *no* dmg is easily a superior choice.

As said before, yes it is the plater mentality that is the cause of the imbalance, that can not be changed without some alterations to the way the two tanks work. Utsuemi is an *extremely* powerful tanking tool, and there is no way around that fact.

[Macht]

Re: Re-envisioning NIN

The ideas here for NIN and other jobs I don't see being good at all.

The new idea for NIN is still giving them their utsusemi and as I interpret actually makes some stuff about utsusemi to overpowered. Making the shadows to be something like a hate beacon, what stops a THF then from SATA onto this hate beacon and making it a sole disposable target?

The other problem is once you get into having an actual NPC like copy with HP of it's own adjusting it becomes a pain. Around when you first get to use Utsusemi: Ichi a Hume or Mithra player going with that would have a shadow of about 20-30 HP, a Elvaan would have one of maybe 40 HP, a Galka of about probably 60 HP, and a Tarutaru likely with 10-20 HP.

This gives to much superiority of the job by it's race, a Galka and Elvaan would have very powerful Utsusemi able to take anywere from 1-300+ hits depending on what they fight. Even with mobs of VT or IT to them even at just 20% a Galka or Elvaan Utsusemi: Ichi would be capable of taking approx. 12 hits and Ni taking approx. 20 hits.

Yet a Mithra or Hume would only get about 9 hits with Ichi and 15 with Ni. Then of course a Tarutaru probably be lucky to get even 7 hits with Ichi and 11 with Ni. Then of course against the stronger bosses this HP stats and none of the NINs Utsusemi would not survive even 1 hit from the really strong mobs.

Also the Distract ability is too strong, hate spike + party hate reduction. Not only are your reducing the parties hate but your spike is intended to be temporary which means in essence yours as well gets reduced, way to powerful and starts making /NIN to be the only choice for any DD (Create a distract cycle with the Tank using Provoke in the end and you effectively create something that can wedge a huge gapping hole in hate, becoming even more profound with a THF SATA to the tank).

Then the 2hr is way to sickenly powerful especially when used in combination with a hate reduction cycle from distract. The ideas effectively takes NIN out of being a Tank and makes them a way to powerful DD with way to strong abilities as a Sub. I mean a shadow from a RNG/NIN doing even 20% damage of that of a RNG is encroaching on the RNG/WAR field.

Then you are stealing out of DRKs by making WAR stronger with 2-handed weapons through stagger. Again stealing out of DRKs with Chi Fist which is almost a resemblance of Blood Weapon, yet is stronger because it's effect isn't impeaded by fighting Undead and can be used far more frequently.

The SAM one I'm not certain about I play it's scenario over and over in my head, at the current time I can't find something it's impeading on. Perhaps maybe it makes them to strong as being almost like free flash attacks, it would give a reason for SAM to do stick with SAM/WAR or even SAM/NIN using distract.

The change to Shield and Parry makes no sence, why should it skill up if you were completly in-effective in shielding or parrying. The new 2hr for DRK seems like you are weakening them, their 2hr is useful for countering Souleater's negative effects. It almost like promoting some MNK/DRK combination to use Chi Fist + Souleater type thing. Not to also mention this takes away strength to lower levels that seems to be creating gap were they'd have to crawl their way to around lv. 40 to be effective in exping which is counter productive.

If anything to be done to NIN, I'd be more intrested in seeing the afformentioned chance variable in Utsusemi and have NIN branch a new Chakra system for them. Something along accessing the 8 points of chakra as well as their downfalls, can easily associate the 8 points to elements as well so it already has a decent start of relating to the games current function.

Though sadly the ideas I do have for it is probably well beyond current technology to effectively accomplish. At least though in it's design it would give them more foot hold to being a resonable tank or resonable DD depending how they trained their chakra. It would also complete the NIN to a more robust mythical or spiritual aspect of NINs. Ninjutsu in RL uses their style of forms in part as to focus their chakra. It isn't just something from anime like Naruto. Just as Shaolin Monks speak of the spiritual power within they associate as Chi, Ninja's had something similar that they referrenced as Chakra.

[Omni]

Re: Re-envisioning NIN

1) If you have to worry about AM going off on your pld from an XP mob, I think there are other worries you should be addressing than the fact that pld take magic dmg directly.

2) There are many attacks utsu does not absorb. It's pretty even I think. Especially now.

3) Yes, you may not be in the new zones or have 2 refresher. But, if you do not have 1 refresher in your pt then there is something wrong not just with your pld. So now why not let us try to change the reliance on refreshers? The need to have 1 refresher in a pt is the true cause of pld's mp woes isnt it? Why not make all native mp using jobs mp self sufficient? Recast timers do cause down time. Because recast timers get nins killed. I get criticalled more often than anything when my shadows go down. After that, I have a good 3-4 hits before I'm eating dirt.

4) Utsu is powerful. Im an not denying that and I dont think anyone is. I just dont think that is the problem -causing- this. It's just one of the reasons people have. You take utsu away from the tanking realm and give (for instance) the said abilities in the OP and you'll inevitably find players developing a way to exploit those new abilities. If SE wants pld to be the only tank available, they will make it so. I think the most fair change that should take place would be to affect subbing nin.

[raidenn]

Re: Re-envisioning NIN

I hope they have more than just a paladin for a tanking class. During the early days of FFXI, there were very few Ninjas and only Paladin was the tanker, no one wanted to join a party unless there was a Paladin. There were White Mages who wont join unless you have a Paladin. It was very common when a party would disband as soon as the Paladin insists on leaving after he levels.

[Macht]

Re: Re-envisioning NIN

1) If you have to worry about AM going off on your pld from an XP mob, I think there are other worries you should be addressing than the fact that pld take magic dmg directly.
2) There are many attacks utsu does not absorb. It's pretty even I think. Especially now.
3) Yes, you may not be in the new zones or have 2 refresher. But, if you do not have 1 refresher in your pt then there is something wrong not just with your pld. So now why not let us try to change the reliance on refreshers? The need to have 1 refresher in a pt is the true cause of pld's mp woes isnt it? Why not make all native mp using jobs mp self sufficient? Recast timers do cause down time. Because recast timers get nins killed. I get criticalled more often than anything when my shadows go down. After that, I have a good 3-4 hits before I'm eating dirt.
4) Utsu is powerful. Im an not denying that and I dont think anyone is. I just dont think that is the problem -causing- this. It's just one of the reasons people have. You take utsu away from the tanking realm and give (for instance) the said abilities in the OP and you'll inevitably find players developing a way to exploit those new abilities. If SE wants pld to be the only tank available, they will make it so. I think the most fair change that should take place would be to affect subbing nin.

Agreed, as I stated in another thread with all it's talk of Utsusemi and NIN.

I hope they have more than just a paladin for a tanking class. During the early days of FFXI, there were very few Ninjas and only Paladin was the tanker, no one wanted to join a party unless there was a Paladin. There were White Mages who wont join unless you have a Paladin. It was very common when a party would disband as soon as the Paladin insists on leaving after he levels.

In the Older times before lv. 50 cap was raised the Tanks were WAR and MNKs. Progressed to PLD, WAR, and MNKs, then at one point became PLDs and WARs, then PLDs and NINs, now even if NIN isn't the ideal people start trying to force a NIN to work in that situation.

[Aeni]

Re: Re-envisioning NIN

In the Older times before lv. 50 cap was raised the Tanks were WAR and MNKs. Progressed to PLD, WAR, and MNKs, then at one point became PLDs and WARs, then PLDs and NINs, now even if NIN isn't the ideal people start trying to force a NIN to work in that situation.

Yes, this is what I was discussing about in the thread currently debated under the PLD forum.

The game has evolved, yes, but right now it's not for the best. In fact, it is degrading. Slowly at first, but as enough player base gets experienced in the game, it will devolve repidly. The problems that were generated DIRECTLY as a result of RoZ is only being exacerbated through CoP and now ToAU.

Now, without having to rehash the same old arguments, I'd like to point out the major problem.

Omni said that it's not a problem of a job (indirectly saying that therefore there are no problems/should be no problems with the abilities of a job either) but more of player mentality.

Yet, is it not because of the inherent flaws in a system that contributes to the player's mentality? If the abilities or loopholes were not available in the first place, would there even be a need to have such discussions at all? Something to mull over before putting out a definitive reply on the problems at hand.

Right now the way I see it, there's a lot of improvements that can be made into this game. However, we're forgetting that SE also has business obligations to fulfill which may or may not impede on any kind of improvement being made. Some of these may include:

• Is it worth changing anything to an already aging game and player population?
• If we're putting out a new MMO game just out on the horizon, then why bother?
• How would changes impact our ability to maintain and secure the customer base?

Unfortunately, changes cannot be made so easily without having repercussions to deal with. The problems have so saturated the player base that it has almost become "normal" and thus worsens the chances of any repairs being made.

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I think making all ninjutsu mana dependant, throwing out the tools sytem and giving NINs a mana bar will solve 99% of the problem. While we're at it, make BRD songs mana dependant as well and give them a mana bar.

[DakAttack]

Re: Re-envisioning NIN

I really wish people stopped trying to solve everything by nerfing NINs and Utsusemi, it seems that's the only thing people can't think of. I'm leveling PLD and yet seeing NINs getting nerfed is the last thing I want to see.

Seriously, what's wrong with people and their "nerf everyone who isn't me" attitude.

Do you even pay attention? You must be either ignorant or lazy. Nobody cares what job you're leveling on the side, we really don't. There's people who've devoted everything they have and all their money into a tank job that's inferior to a job that was never meant to tank. There's a big difference between to tank jobs when one's pulling in 4-5k an hour and the other 7-8k an hour when it has nothing to do with the rest of the party.

Neither Samurai nor Ninja were meant to be tanks, but anything that subs Ninja can tank because of Utsusemi.

[Zamphire]

Re: Re-envisioning NIN

How about we just give every job in the game Utsusemi Ichi and Ni. There, no more unbalanced jobs

[Macht]

Re: Re-envisioning NIN

Right now the way I see it, there's a lot of improvements that can be made into this game. However, we're forgetting that SE also has business obligations to fulfill which may or may not impede on any kind of improvement being made. Some of these may include:

• Is it worth changing anything to an already aging game and player population?
• If we're putting out a new MMO game just out on the horizon, then why bother?
• How would changes impact our ability to maintain and secure the customer base?

Unfortunately, changes cannot be made so easily without having repercussions to deal with. The problems have so saturated the player base that it has almost become "normal" and thus worsens the chances of any repairs being made.

Buisness wise there are a lot of reasons in MMORPGs to keep an aging one going. Just look back at EQ and EQ2 for this. EQ2 flopped in comparison to EQ however because they kept progressing EQ as well they were able to maintain their playbase with the players just simply returning to EQ as EQ2 flopped. Sustaining and improving an older MMORPG helps keep playerbase retention and gives room for put out more inovative MMORPGs with less of a lash back if it fails.

Allows them to get feedback of what went wrong on the newer MMORPG and make a better one next time. The biggest part to make this successful is being able to retain your playerbase, so advancing a successful MMORPG that's aged is very important.

[Raydeus]

Re: Re-envisioning NIN

Do you even pay attention? You must be either ignorant or lazy. Nobody cares what job you're leveling on the side, we really don't. There's people who've devoted everything they have and all their money into a tank job that's inferior to a job that was never meant to tank. There's a big difference between to tank jobs when one's pulling in 4-5k an hour and the other 7-8k an hour when it has nothing to do with the rest of the party.

Neither Samurai nor Ninja were meant to be tanks, but anything that subs Ninja can tank because of Utsusemi.

I play PLD because I enjoy playing the job, I enjoy the abilities and the way of tanking, and most of the time I'm too busy having a good time with it to worry about what other jobs can or can't do. If you consider that ignorance or lazyness it doesn't really matter to me.

Now, if you wanna complain about how inferior PLD is compared to other jobs and that the other kids don't wanna play with you because of it then suit yourself.

When I've felt that PLDs could be better I've spent my time thinking on ways to improve the job rather than ways to change other jobs and bring them "down to my level". But I'm guessing you must be the kind of person who rather take others down with you than actually improving yourself.

[Gentoo]

Re: Re-envisioning NIN

But I'm guessing you must be the kind of person who rather take others down with you than actually improving yourself.

Since I'm also one of the ones thinking a "nerf" would be a good idea, I guess I'm lumped into that statement.

For some of us, we look at Utsusemi, and see a mistake (it's far too powerful, and takes the balance out of the game).

So, do you fix the mistake, or do you change the entire [virtual] world bit-by-bit (no pun intended) so that mistake works?

[Herrisa]

Re: Re-envisioning NIN

Orrrrr....

-% damage reduction, -% critical hit rate, PLD only gear

None of that piddly -5% either... I'm talking gear with -20% & -30% stuff. A PLD with -60% damage reduction would be .

[LadyPeorth]

Re: Re-envisioning NIN

[*]Monk: Change Guard to check for skill-up whenever the MNK is hit, not when Guard actually processes. Give MNK a level 40 job ability called Chi Fist (3:00 recast, 0:30 duration) that adds a MND-based added-effect healing effect to its unarmed attacks that automatically processed on each hit. Chi Fist would heal an amount equal to the MNK's MND divided by 5 per hit. It would not cause extra damage to the target and would work even if facing undead.

I'm a Monk and I approve of these changes.