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  • Re-envisioning NIN

    Posit: NIN, as a tank is inherrently unbalanced. For most purposes, the ability to completely avoid both physical and magical damage can not be balanced compared to another tank that is based on reducing damage. This deprecates the damage reduction tank as well as reduces the importance of healers. There is only one effective damage negation tank for most levels, the NIN, though the WAR/NIN can be effective at level 74. The initial balance to NIN, limited number of slots to carry tools, has been mostly reduced thanks to added inventory slot quests and tool-bags and the cost of the tools is not a significant impediment at higher levels.

    Recommendation: Change NIN from a tank job to a DD/backup tank pet job. This must be done in such a way that the substantial investment in gear that NINs have made is not invalidated, though inevitably some dislocations would occur. The proposed changes are as follows:
    • Utsusemi: Rather than creating shadows that absorb hits, it creates a shadow duplicate of the NIN, which would look like a Fomor version of the NIN. It would function like a mime, exactly mimicking the NIN's actions, including job abilities, job traits, spells, and attacks, but not weaponskills. Rather than use the NINs weapon skills though, it would use the NIN's Ninjitsu skill as its weapon skill . It's Ninjitsu skill would be equal to the NINs. At the Ichi level, it's characteristics and base damage would be 20% of the NINs, as would its HP and MP. At the Ni level, they would be 33%. For monsters with San, it would be 50%. The shadow's hate would be tracked as for any pet. However, if the NIN is attacked directly (by weapon or non-AOE spell), the shadow has a chance of being targetted instead. The recast for Ichi and NI would be changed to 10:00 minutes each with a duration of 20:00 minutes. As normal, the NIN could only have one pet at a time. The stack size for Utsusemi tools would be reduced to 12 and recipe yields adjusted accordingly. If used by a /NIN, the shadow's stats would be proportional to the ratio of the NIN level to the main level (i.e. 50% if a fully leveled sub) and the chance of absorbing a hit would be likewise proportionally reduced.
    • New Enmity-based Job Ability: NIN's would gain a new level 35 job ability called Distract with a 5:00 recast. When used, it would, based on the NINs current rank on the enmity list and the amount of +Enmity the NIN had, force the monster to attack the NIN for a certain amount of time (10-15 seconds typically). It would also reduce all party members' enmity rank by a small amount, enhanced by any +enmity the NIN had.
    • New 2hr Ability: The NIN's 2hr would be replaced by a new one called Shadow Blade (in Japanese of course). The NIN's next normal attack would work like a Ranger's Barrage, with a maximum of 10 hits (and like Barrage, ending as soon as an attack missed). Double Attack could process as well. If the NIN had a Shadow up, it would use Shadow Blade as well.
    • Shurikens: The yield on Shurikens would be increased so that the recipes would yield 99 on a normal success. HQ1 would produce 33 +1 Shurikens, HQ2 would produce 66 +1 shurikens.
    Other Tanks: With the NIN moved to a DD/back-up tank role, other tanking jobs would need to be strengthened to avoid simply making the tank role a PLD monopoly instead.
    • Monk: Change Guard to check for skill-up whenever the MNK is hit, not when Guard actually processes. Give MNK a level 40 job ability called Chi Fist (3:00 recast, 0:30 duration) that adds a MND-based added-effect healing effect to its unarmed attacks that automatically processed on each hit. Chi Fist would heal an amount equal to the MNK's MND divided by 5 per hit. It would not cause extra damage to the target and would work even if facing undead.
    • Warrior: Give WAR a new level 40 Job Trait called Stagger. It would only work with 2-handed weapons. Each time the WAR hit, the enemy's next attack would suffer a delay penalty equal to 10% of the WAR's weapon delay, but would only process if the WAR was at the top of the enmity list.
    • Samauri: Give SAM a new level 40 Job Trait called Blinding Blade. Each time the SAM hit, the enemy's next attack would suffer an ACC down equal to the 20% of the SAM's skill with their current weapon. It would only process if the SAM was at the top of the enmity list and the mob was facing the SAM.
    • Miscellaneous Changes: Parry and Shield would check for skill-up whenever the character is hit. To avoid stepping on DRKs' 2hr, their 2hr would be altered to instead act as Souleater, with +50% effectivenes, and with no self inflicted damage. Either new gear would be added or existing gear altered to give MNK and SAM access to a wider selection of tanking gear at all levels.
    Commentary: I fully expect 99.9% of all NINs to hate this proposal. It's natural to not want to lose or share a space as one of the most valuable jobs in the game, but I think there is a real problem in game balance that can't be fixed simply by strengthening the other potential tank jobs and keeping NIN the same. I've tried to include enough carrots to offset the pain of the massive nerf-bat, but it's impossible to do so fully. There is of course no chance of this ever being implemented. The howling that would result would make the protests by RNGs and BSTs look mild by comparison, but I think it's important to occasionally examine the imbalances in the game.

  • #2
    Re: Re-envisioning NIN

    i'm sorry, but the only thing I can say about this is

    Thanks Yyg!

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Re-envisioning NIN

      let me whip out my SE-lead_developer direct line contact right now...


      only thing i like is the x99 on shuriken synths.
      and its not because i am a ninja.

      as thought out and fun as it might have been to type all that up, there still needs to be a lot of thinking to be done. you cannot give other jobs tanking abilities and think they wont be abused either. what if you have a pt with multiple tanking jobs AND those same jobs can dd as well?

      nerfing isnt as easy or as fun as it seems.
      Omni@Remora: NIN75 RNG75 MNK75 COR75 BST64 BRD53
      ♪♫ San d'Oria Complete ♪♫ ZM Complete ♪♫ CoP Complete ♪♫ AM Complete ♪♫

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Re-envisioning NIN

        I really wish people stopped trying to solve everything by nerfing NINs and Utsusemi, it seems that's the only thing people can't think of. I'm leveling PLD and yet seeing NINs getting nerfed is the last thing I want to see.

        Seriously, what's wrong with people and their "nerf everyone who isn't me" attitude.
        sigpic
        "In this world, the one who has the most fun is the winner!" C.B.
        Prishe's Knight 2004-Forever.

        その目だれの目。

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        • #5
          Re: Re-envisioning NIN

          Not bad. I think SE really thought SAM had a potential to be the next tanking job since some of the AF gear has some enmity stats on them. Might be a good idea if they had some extensive parry skills.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Re-envisioning NIN

            Great idea. I wish I could find something ass holeish to say, but it's really a good idea. Though I doubt it'll ever happen, and I'd really hate to see shadows go, they are awsome for soloing.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Re-envisioning NIN

              Unfortunately, I've come to quite like NIN as a tank. I think if S-E had it to do all over, they'd make it a tank from the start with a bigger focus on the elemental enfeebles and less on their Dual Wield DD potential. Anywho, I think they'd do it right but where it is, and with their vehement belief in not directly nerfing jobs (they'll never lower a job's stat growth or skill caps, they can only add and change game mechanics themselves to hinder exploited jobs), we're stuck with NINs as they are. I think they're moving in the right direction to fix the situation (vastly improving PLD's DD potential through both new traits as well as gear such as Homam). With that said...

              ... I don't think even 2 complete tank jobs is enough. Unfortunately, War/nin is just a slightly different flavor of Nin/war, so they'll never embrace it as a complete tank job. Additionally, they realize the damage monster they've created in Warrior. As of a year ago, WARs could boast the greatest access to Haste gear as well as the most +enmity of any job. Both of those claims are now quite shakey, and they continue to push WAR more and more into a DD position (or maybe the players do it? or maybe S-E does it because they see that that's what the players want?). I don't think they'd ever add Chi Fist to mnk or anything like it, but it'd definately be nice if they made it so a monk geared right would Guard at least 60% of the attacks that aren't countered. I also think it'd be interesting if they gave monks a job trait that increased the amount healed by any hp-recovering effect so that Pollen or Cure would heal them of 5% more or something.

              I really like your idea for Stagger o.o (though they'd have to nerf Warrior before they ever added it).
              "And if he left off dreaming about you, where do you suppose you'd be?"

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Re-envisioning NIN

                I'm neither a NIN, a PLD or a healer, so this wouldn't benefit me in any way. I realize it wouldn't be simple, and would require testing to get the balance right, if in some far off FFXXXIII-online it was implemented. I certainly don't mean it as a challenge to NINs (which is why I didn't post it in the NIN thread myself; I don't believe in going into someone's house and arguing with them). It'd just be nice when putting together a party to not have people feel they *need* a NIN or /NIN, and I don't see any way to accomplish while keeping NIN the same, and it's much easier to change NIN a bit than overhaul three other jobs.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Re-envisioning NIN

                  Originally posted by Raydeus View Post
                  I really wish people stopped trying to solve everything by nerfing NINs and Utsusemi, it seems that's the only thing people can't think of. I'm leveling PLD and yet seeing NINs getting nerfed is the last thing I want to see.

                  Seriously, what's wrong with people and their "nerf everyone who isn't me" attitude.
                  /clap

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Re-envisioning NIN

                    Originally posted by raidenn View Post
                    Not bad. I think SE really thought SAM had a potential to be the next tanking job since some of the AF gear has some enmity stats on them. Might be a good idea if they had some extensive parry skills.
                    NO

                    SE did not think that.
                    They explicitly said that sam is and never was to tank.

                    Really, you cannot look at AF and try to derive the uses out of it. AF is mainly symbolic of the job. AF2, AF+1 are better representations of what SE thinks the job should do, but NOT AF.
                    Omni@Remora: NIN75 RNG75 MNK75 COR75 BST64 BRD53
                    ♪♫ San d'Oria Complete ♪♫ ZM Complete ♪♫ CoP Complete ♪♫ AM Complete ♪♫

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Re-envisioning NIN

                      Originally posted by raidenn View Post
                      Not bad. I think SE really thought SAM had a potential to be the next tanking job since some of the AF gear has some enmity stats on them. Might be a good idea if they had some extensive parry skills.
                      actually, it was brought up in the Fan Festival that SE never ever thought SAM to be a tanking job.

                      Edit:
                      doh! beaten to the punch by Omni
                      Last edited by neighbortaru; 09-14-2006, 09:49 AM.

                      Thanks Yyg!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Re-envisioning NIN

                        I fully expect 99.9% of all NINs to hate this proposal. It's natural to not want to lose or share a space as one of the most valuable jobs in the game, but I think there is a real problem in game balance that can't be fixed simply by strengthening the other potential tank jobs and keeping NIN the same.
                        I completely agree with this sentiment -- strengthening other jobs to try and balance them with NIN seems a backward approach.

                        Your Samurai and Monk ideas I find really pleasing to twirl around in my mind, but I'm not so enthralled with new Ninja description. Although it was a accident, I like the notion of a Ninja tanks.

                        I believe the imbalance is that Ninjas, unlike most other jobs, don't have to make concessions on offensive gear/food versus defensive accouterments. Remove Utsusemi's ability negate an attack 100% of the time [operating more along the lines of it's magical counterpart], and I think you balance out Ninja with everything else.

                        signature by fallenintoshadows

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Re-envisioning NIN

                          Originally posted by Mouser View Post
                          I'm neither a NIN, a PLD or a healer, so this wouldn't benefit me in any way. I realize it wouldn't be simple, and would require testing to get the balance right, if in some far off FFXXXIII-online it was implemented. I certainly don't mean it as a challenge to NINs (which is why I didn't post it in the NIN thread myself; I don't believe in going into someone's house and arguing with them). It'd just be nice when putting together a party to not have people feel they *need* a NIN or /NIN, and I don't see any way to accomplish while keeping NIN the same, and it's much easier to change NIN a bit than overhaul three other jobs.
                          well, parties don't *need* a RDM or BRD either... it just makes life so much freaking easier. same with NIN.

                          it's not the job that's the problem, it's the player base (zomg, where have we heard that before).

                          Thanks Yyg!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Re-envisioning NIN

                            Originally posted by neighbortaru View Post
                            well, parties don't *need* a RDM or BRD either... it just makes life so much freaking easier. same with NIN.

                            it's not the job that's the problem, it's the player base (zomg, where have we heard that before).
                            I'm not entirely sure I can agree with that. If one job is clearly better in a fairly objective way than other jobs at a particular party role, people will seek it out. SE has addressed the perceived need for a refresher with recent changes to widen the number of options (the COR job, PLD Auto-refresh, Absorb-TP for DRK so they can heal MP between pulls, Auto- Refresh as an option for BLU).

                            They've attempted to strengthen PLD, which is a start to evening the tanking options, but even so there's a fundamental problem in trying to balance PLD, which takes damage and can't gear for offense while tanking, and NIN, which can negate damage from any source and gear for offense. I'm not certain that there is a way to adjust player attitudes since, to a large part, they are actually based on observable evidence, not merely faddish group-think.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Re-envisioning NIN

                              Originally posted by Lmnop View Post
                              ... I don't think even 2 complete tank jobs is enough.
                              Enough for what? It's more than enough for there to be a bunch of tanks looking for parties and not finding them. (Of course, all the ones not finding parties are paladins. Coincidence? Yeah, right.)
                              Unfortunately, War/nin is just a slightly different flavor of Nin/war, so they'll never embrace it as a complete tank job. Additionally, they realize the damage monster they've created in Warrior.
                              WAR was always intended to be a damage monster if you geared for damage, and a good tank if you geared for defense/enmity. The problem with WAR/NIN is that it has both at once: you can gear for damage and still be 90% invulnerable (and of course doing that much damage gives you a ton of hate).
                              You can't really bring everyone up to the level of a WAR/NIN without destroying anything remotely resembling challenge in the game. I know how unpopular nerfs are, but "just buff everyone else" only works for so long until you realize that you can solo ITs now. (Actually, some jobs *can* solo ITs now. Mostly if they sub NIN.)
                              To create real balance in tanking, Utsusemi needs to be weakened *just enough* that a mainjob ninja with an evasion/parry setup can still tank with it, but not every monkey with /NIN can be invulnerable even while wearing a hauby and snipers etc. It's a delicate line (and depends on the mob as much as on the player and gear). But until blink tanks need to make the kind of offense vs. defense tradeoffs that iron tanks do, where trying to tank in offensive gear will make you a severe burden on the healer or a corpse, they'll still be preferred for exp/merit because they're a DD and a tank at the same time - it's like having a 7 member party without the exp loss of *actually* having a 7 member party.
                              Either that, or get rid of blink tanking entirely and let other job combinations like WAR/MNK and MNK/WAR and maybe even SAM/WAR take up tanking, with some real defense, Counter, etc. But they'll never do that at this point.
                              Defeated: Maat, Divine Might, Fenrir, Kirin, Cactrot Rapido, Xolotl, Diabolos Prime, Kurrea, 9/10 Dynamis Bosses (missing Tav), Promathia, Proto-Ultima, Proto-Omega, 4 Jailers, Apocalypse Nigh, 6/6 Nyzul Bosses
                              RDM90, PLD90, DRG90, COR90, SCH90, BLU54
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