Dual Weild Mojo

[sevenpointflaw]

Okay, i'm looking at /nin for my main 'cause I need a little extra oomph for soloing. I've done all the research on weapons and gear and why Dual Wield helps with my ability to attack blah blah blah yakkity smack.

The thing is, being a WHM by trade (I really have little to no interest in anything other than WHM) and generally speaking not enjoying melee jobs in general, I have little to no understanding of how exactly Dual Wield works, how the haste modifiers actually affect it, and more importantly how you determine which hand to put which weapon in (delay & damge wise).

So... I was wondering if anyone would be wiling to give me a breakdown of Dual Weild and the mechanics behind it.

Thanks much in advance!

[Caspian]

Re: Dual Weild Mojo

I don't think it matter which hand you put which weapon in, as far as delay goes. I think its all just added together and then dropped by a certain amount depending on which dual wield you're at. At 75 I think you get DW2. Damage-wise, I've always been told to put highest damaging weapon in main and put the stat+ weapon in offhand. I think as a soloing WHM you could just use two darksteel mauls, but I'm not sure about clubs at your level.
Thats it in a nutshell, and to the best of my knowledge. We can only hope Armando, the resident DW expert, comes in and gives you the whole lowdown and corrects my many mistakes.

[Goldesper]

Re: Dual Weild Mojo

As far as subbing NIN goes, I've heard that

DW1 (Main job 20-49) Gives you No haste. I've also heard 5% and 10% haste.

DWII (Main job 50-75) Gives you 15% haste. I've also heard 20%.


If someone knows the actual numbers, please do tell, I've been wanting to know for a while now

more importantly how you determine which hand to put which weapon in (delay & damge wise).

By the way, always put the weapon with the higher damage in the main hand. Main hand weapons are the ones doing the WS. Delay is added together and multiplied by the amount I said before. So if you have 2 300 delay weapons 300+300=600-(600*.15)=510. So you swing both weapons every 510 delay.

[rudeboypneb]

Re: Dual Weild Mojo

You had it right.

DW1 (nin 10) = no haste
DW2 (nin 25) = 15% haste
DW3 (nin 45) = 25% haste
DW4 (nin 65) = 30% haste

[Feba]

Re: Dual Weild Mojo

DW1 (nin 10) = no haste

No, it gives a very very slight bonus.. Like 1%, but still a small bonus. People have tested this as RDM/NIN in BCNM20

[Armando]

Re: Dual Weild Mojo

We can only hope Armando, the resident DW expert, comes in and gives you the whole lowdown and corrects my many mistakes.

Lol, I'm flattered.

DWI = 10% Delay reduction (the term Haste is misleading, since not only does DW use your lowered Delay for the TP calculations, it doesn't count towards the Haste cap either.)
DWII = 15%
DWIII = 25%
DWIV = 30%
Suppanomimi = +5%

DWI becomes available at Level 10 NIN. DWII becomes available at level 25 NIN.

When Dual Wielding, you swing with both weapons at once. The delay between attack rounds is equal to the sum of both weapons's Delays, reduced by the percentages stated above. For example, if you were to dual wield a pair of Darksteel Mauls, the delay between your attack rounds would be (340 + 340) * 0.85 = 578.

As for TP gain, your TP is calculated using your newly reduced Delay. In the event that you're using weapons with different Delays, then the average (reduced) Delay is used, and both weapons will gain the same TP gain. Here's an example.

TP for Delays between 180 and 450: 5.0 + [(Delay - 180) * 6.5/270]

Martial Wand + Darksteel Maul, DWII:
Average Delay: (290 + 340)/2 = 315
Reduced Delay: 315 * 0.85 = 267.75 -> 267 (SE never rounds, I assume this applies to Delay as well. Either way, 1 Delay usually won't make a difference.)
TP gain: 5.0 + [(267 - 180) * 6.5/270] = 7.09 -> 7.0

Both weapons will gain 7.0 TP per swing, despite having different Delays.

Other minor details about Dual Wield:
- When performing physical WS while dual wielding, an additional hit is added to the WS. This hit has its fTP set at 1.0 just like any additional hit, and is performed with the second weapon. You gain full TP from this additional hit.
- While it (usually) doesn't increase your TP/Delay ratio, it does subtract an extra hit required from the total needed to reach 100 TP. This is because when you engage an enemy, or after you perform a WS (thus starting a new 0-to-100 TP cycle,) you gain one full hit's worth of TP completely free of delay. When Dual Wielding, you perform attacks in sets of two, and it adds an extra hit in your WS that also gives full TP, so you start off with two "free" hits rather than one.
- On the other hand, if you fall short of 100 TP by one hit, you'll have to wait two swing's worth of Delay for the next attack round, rather than just one hit's worth of Delay, since both weapons attack together.

That's pretty much it, I think.

[sevenpointflaw]

Re: Dual Weild Mojo

Awesome. You guys totally rawk my sawks. Especially you Armando. It all suddenly makes sense. ^^ /bow

[Armando]

Re: Dual Weild Mojo

It's no problem. Oh, I forgot something. When doing WS, all hits are performed with the main weapon except for the additional one (which is done with the sub weapon.) That said, while it makes no difference speed-wise where you put what, you'd want your higher-DMG weapon in the main hand so that the hits are performed with that one. You wouldn't want 6 of Hexa Strike's hits to be done with the weaker weapon, after all.

The only big exception to that rule is weapons with +Crit rate, because the extra critical rate only applies to that weapon. If you have two weapons, and one has slightly less DMG but has +Crit rate, it can be better to put the one that has +Crit rate in the main hand, because the criticals can make it worth it.

[sevenpointflaw]

Re: Dual Weild Mojo

Funny you mention that; I was thinking of getting Morgenstern and unlocking it for the Dmg 40/Crit +6%. Definitly good to know. Thanks again.

[Lmnop]

Re: Dual Weild Mojo

slight Hi-jack. Armando, get that Murcurial Kris yet? If delay is figured by the sum of both weapons/2, then do Pick type axe (high delay, usually 312) mainhand and kris offhand to further the tp advantage of multi-hits. I know that this would mean more time between attack rounds though, thus slightly reducing the number of times that the Kris is swinging. Would it work out to any sort of advantage?

PS: I used Pick as an example because it's the highest delay weapon equipable by any job that can also use the Kris (that I can think of).

[Gwynn]

Re: Dual Weild Mojo

Hehehe, Armando has a PhD in Dual Wieldology...

[Armando]

Re: Dual Weild Mojo

slight Hi-jack. Armando, get that Murcurial Kris yet? If delay is figured by the sum of both weapons/2, then do Pick type axe (high delay, usually 312) mainhand and kris offhand to further the tp advantage of multi-hits. I know that this would mean more time between attack rounds though, thus slightly reducing the number of times that the Kris is swinging. Would it work out to any sort of advantage?

PS: I used Pick as an example because it's the highest delay weapon equipable by any job that can also use the Kris (that I can think of).

You know, that's a very good question. I never did get the kris, it's a long story. It basically comes down to getting sidetracked plus my girlfriend is going to quit the game. I haven't actually stopped to do any calculations for a scenario like that, but I'd assume that the TP gain would stay the same, since while the Kris IS gaining more TP now, it's also swinging with a lower frequency. Let's find out...

Let's assume Mercurial Kris's "occasionally hits 2 to 3 times" effect occurs on 50% of its swings, and that there's an equal chance of "double attack" or "triple attack." That means a 25% "double attack" proc rate and 25% "triple attack" proc rate. I picked these numbers completely arbitrarily and probably don't reflect the kris's actual proc rates. As long as we keep these proc rates constant, then it shouldn't make a difference. Triple Attacks are technically worth two Double Attacks both TP-wise and damage-wise, so we could say Merc. Kris has a 75% pseudo-Double Attack rate overall.

This is gonna be a bit weird to figure out, since we'll have to deal with averages and estimates...let's start by considering the Kris on its own.

Mercurial Kris (192 Delay)
5.2 TP per hit
Average TP per attack round: 5.2 * 1.75 = 9.1 TP
TP per second: 9.1 / (192/60) = 2.84375 TP
TP per minute: 170.625 TP

Hypothetical scenario where M.Kris is dual wielded and the final average Delay is equal to M.Kris's Delay (192):
5.2 TP per hit
Average TP per attack round: 5.2 + (5.2 * 1.75) = 14.3 TP
TP per second: 14.3 / (384/60) = 2.234375 TP
TP per minute: 134.0625 TP

So far, nothing strange: because the M.Kris can only attack half as often, but the TP per hit remained the same, its TP-increasing properties were halved (a 37.5% increase as opposed to 75%.) Now let's see what happens if we increase the average Delay. We'll use a pick, since, as you said, it's one of the highest Delay one-handed weapons.

Standard Pick + Mercurial Kris (312 + 192)
Dual Wield II + Suppanomimi
TP per hit: 5.5
Average TP per attack round: 5.5 + (5.5 * 1.75) = 15.125 TP
TP per second: 15.125 / (402/60) = 2.257463 TP
TP per minute: 135.44778 TP

A *very* slight increase in average TP gain. This could probably be attributed to rounding, and the fact that TP only holds until the tenths place means that this setup's TP per hit is not perfectly proportional to the previous's. In practice, though, we could say that TP stayed the same. Now, let's try a setup in which the main hand weapon isn't quite so high in Delay. Let's use a standard 276 Delay Axe.

Standard Axe + Mercurial Kris (276 + 192)
Dual Wield II + Suppanomimi
5.1 TP per hit
Average TP per attack round: 5.1 + (5.1 * 1.75) = 14.025 TP
TP per second: 14.025 / (374/60) = 2.25 TP
TP per minute: 135 TP

Again, practically no change. Let's try going under 180 Delay now. Let's say, Seiryu's Sword in the main hand.

Seiryu's Sword + Mercurial Kris (240 + 192)
Dual Wield II + Suppanomimi
4.9 TP per hit
Average TP per attack round: 4.9 + (4.9 * 1.75) = 13.475 TP
TP per second: 13.475 / (344/60) = 2.350291 TP
TP per minute: 141.01746 TP

There was a slight increase in TP gain. Now let's push it down even further with a Sirocco Kukri.

Sirocco Kukri + Mercurial Kris (150 + 192)
Dual Wield II + Suppanomimi
4.6 TP per hit
Average TP per attack round: 4.6 + (4.6 * 1.75) = 12.65 TP
TP per second: 12.65 / (272/60) = 2.790441 TP
TP per minute: 167.42646 TP

Now we have a sharp increase in TP gain.

What's going on? Technically, my original hypothesis is correct - the increased TP gain will balance itself out with the increasd Delay, so that the Kris's multihits provide the same benefits for any main hand weapon (assuming you're not pairing it up with something else like a Ridill or Joyeuse.) In other words, no, pairing it up with a high Delay weapon won't increase its effectiveness.

However, there's one more factor to take into account: the TP per hit is still subject to a series of TP formulas in which the TP gain isn't linear! Because within the 180 to 450 range of Delays the TP gain is fairly linear, we didn't see much of a change. However, because TP gain is still faster under 180 Delay, if you can lower your average Delay down to that point, the increased TP-per-Delay will affect the Mercurial Kris as well. Regardless, what we're seeing is a change in the TP-per-Delay ratio, not the Kris's effect; it doesn't change the fact that the Kris's effect will be the same regardless of what you pair it with, or that its effect will be halved.

Hehehe, Armando has a PhD in Dual Wieldology...

Lol, it's a real shame I can't make a living out of this. Oh well, it keeps my math skills sharp even during vacation, so I can't complain. ^^

Oh, and again, I want to remind you all that...

THE PERCENTAGES I USED FOR THE MERCURIAL KRIS WERE PICKED ARBITRARILY - THEY PROBABLY AREN'T THE KRIS'S REAL PROC RATE. Since I used assumed numbers, you can't use them to measure how fast you'd get 100 TP with the Kris - you'd have to know the real proc rate for that. Also, obviously, if you're using different weapon types, there will be accuracy differences between both hands.

[sevenpointflaw]

Re: Dual Weild Mojo

Since this thread isn't dead yet, I just wanted to thank you again for all your help. Its made planning out my weapon usage so much easier. I've been going through looking at various weapon combinations for soloing up through 75, and its so very handy being able to compre stats gained by weapons v. overall damage done + TP gain with them.

All in all, having this knowledge seems to be saving me from dealing with two very annoying NMs, thank god!

[Avoklex]

Re: Dual Weild Mojo

It is good to see another BLM take /NIN. A guy on my server did it from his mid 40-50's and took BLM/NIN all the way up. HE still plays it to this day as well as his COR. Seems to do something right ^^

[Lmnop]

Re: Dual Weild Mojo

I see blm/nins everywhere x.x I don't like it. Usually blms who just don't want to worry about riding the hate line. Pre-nerf RNGs who need to rest and can't pull.

It would appear that not only was I wrong, I was so wrong that the inverse is true. Well, sorta. I mean... no matter what you do, you're gimping a multi-hit weapon's tp-ability by dual wielding but in your math EXAMPLE WITH FAKE NUMBERS, you ended up with 3 less tp/minute than single-wielding. Not too shabby although, neither is enough to do 2 WSs a minute.

As for actual proc rates, I had heard Ridill was a 33% of 1, 2, or 3 swings. It was so long ago that I don't remember if this was someone saying it "felt" like that or truely was. I say Ridill because S-E loves to shunt this game into modules so I think it's pretty safe to assume it has the same rate as the Kris. Also, Kraken Club attacks once less that half the time, for sure. I've never used one, but watching my sister skill up club using one was pretty fantastic. I'm pretty sure you have the same chance of swinging once as you do 7 times with that thing, and I think all multi-hits work on that principle (except for the new ones that work on stipulations).

Armando, have my babies.