Dual Weild Mojo

[Armando]

Re: Dual Weild Mojo

Since this thread isn't dead yet, I just wanted to thank you again for all your help. Its made planning out my weapon usage so much easier. I've been going through looking at various weapon combinations for soloing up through 75, and its so very handy being able to compre stats gained by weapons v. overall damage done + TP gain with them.

All in all, having this knowledge seems to be saving me from dealing with two very annoying NMs, thank god!

You're welcome ^^

As for actual proc rates, I had heard Ridill was a 33% of 1, 2, or 3 swings. It was so long ago that I don't remember if this was someone saying it "felt" like that or truely was. I say Ridill because S-E loves to shunt this game into modules so I think it's pretty safe to assume it has the same rate as the Kris. Also, Kraken Club attacks once less that half the time, for sure. I've never used one, but watching my sister skill up club using one was pretty fantastic. I'm pretty sure you have the same chance of swinging once as you do 7 times with that thing, and I think all multi-hits work on that principle (except for the new ones that work on stipulations).

You mean 33% chance to single-hit, 33% chance to double-hit and 33% chance to triple-hit (i.e. same chance for each kind of attack round?) And, damn, if the chances are equal on K.Club, too, that's...insane. That means 12.5% proc rate for each possible outcome...that's...12.5 + 25 + 37.5 + 50 + 62.5 + 75 = 262.5% pseudo-Double Attack o_O It has 264 Delay, that's 7.0 TP per hit, 7.0 * 3.625 = 25.375 average TP per attack...It'd only take 4 attack rounds at that rate, so you'd hit 100 TP in...~17.6 seconds! My God, PLD tank spamming Moonlight with that must be orgasmic.

Armando, have my babies.

Sorry, I'm property of Suzanne ^^

[Caspian]

Re: Dual Weild Mojo

Since we're on the subject of proc rates of multi-hit weapons:
Do they proc more on lower level mobs than higher ones?
There's a 75 RNG/NIN on Fairy who does Dynamis runs with Kracken and Rydill and melee's for tp, then backs up for Slugshot. I always figured it wasn't much more effective, thinking the proc rates on the multi hits were few and far between. If thats right, then he could be absolutely smoking mobs with repeated slugshots.

[Lmnop]

Re: Dual Weild Mojo

he most certainly does. Kraken club procs same on AV as it does a wild rabbit (not really, since the rabbit would die on 1st swing, but you get the idea).

This concept is why certain HNMLSs used to only let RNGs lot Ridills.

[Armando]

Re: Dual Weild Mojo

I've NEVER owned a multi-hit weapon (though now I'm extremely tempted to get my fishing up for Mercurial Kris) but I always thought their proc rates were static and didn't vary. Yeah, in theory, that RNG should be shooting Slugshots like crazy (although technically I think the Ridill is slowing down the Kraken Club in terms of TP gain.) I've read in Allakhazam of SAM/RNGs spamming Sidewinder with Soboro Sukehiro (G.Katana, occasionally attacks two to three times.)

Edit: Damn, Lmnop got there first, lol

[Caspian]

Re: Dual Weild Mojo

Sweet geez thats insane. I was also thinking the same of DW'ing with Ridill. Seems like even with the lowered delay with DW bonus, you're still not making up for the fact that you're adding on a lot of delay to get back to the weapon that can hit more than twice the number of times as the sword. Quick Armando, crunch the numbers....GO!

[Armando]

Re: Dual Weild Mojo

XD Ok.

Kraken Club (264 Delay)
7.0 TP
Average TP per attack round: 25.375 TP
Average TP/sec: 5.767045
Average TP/min: 346.0227
TP bonus: 265.2%

Assuming Ridill has 33.33% chance of 1, 2, and 3 hits, it does 100% more attacks than the usual weapon (33.33% double attack + 33.33% triple attack = 33.33% + 66.66% extra hits)....

Ridill (236 Delay)
6.3 TP
Average TP per attack round: 6.3 * 2 = 12.6 TP
Average TP/sec: 3.203390
Average TP/min: 192.2034
TP bonus: 100%

Kraken Club + Ridill
Dual Wield II, Suppanomimi = (264 + 236)/2 * 0.80 = 200 Delay
5.7 TP
Average TP per attack round: (5.7 * 3.625) + (5.7 * 2.0) = 20.6625 + 11.4 = 32.0625
Average TP/sec: 4.809375
Average TP/min: 288.5625
TP bonus: 181.25%

The TP bonus of Kraken Club + Ridill is the average of their individual TP bonuses. In other words, yes, Ridill slows down the Kraken Club. Or, if you want to look at it differently, the Kraken Club speeds up Ridill. No matter how you look at it, though, as long as you're dual wielding, what you're going to get is the middle ground in terms of TP gain. Since no other weapon in the game can get TP as fast as Kraken Club, anything else will slow it down. This also means that Ridill + Joyeuse is silly, since Ridill on its own will both get TP faster and inflict more damage.

[Caspian]

Re: Dual Weild Mojo

What I was thinking. Thanks Armando. Seriously, you should get your PhD and do your thesis on TP and DW.

[Armando]

Re: Dual Weild Mojo

Lol...I have no idea how to respond to that. Well, I DID rewrite most of FFXIclopedia's TP article (though someone else prettied it up and did a few charts; I suck at formatting and using Excel.) The sad thing is I know all this stuff, and I never get to apply most of it >.> I'd kill for a Kraken Club (or to be high enough to use one XD.)

EDIT: By the way, I may as well ask now. Where the heck does your icon come from? o_O Looks like something you'd get out of Monty Python or something.

[Caspian]

Re: Dual Weild Mojo

Arrested Development. Greatest tv show ever.
Anyway. >.>
<.<
I actually extremely dislike the RNG who has both of those, but I'll probably pass that on to his lsmates since I'm friends with a few of them.

[Armando]

Re: Dual Weild Mojo

Hmm. If it has sheep, I'll have to look into it >.>

Oh, yeah, when I'm not busy I'll have to double-check that "Ridill + Joyeuse is silly" statement. While it'd be somewhat slower TP gain, I didn't bother to check how the DoT compares (even if Joyeuse is weaker, there's still that Dual Wield delay reduction to take into account, as well as that extra hit in Vorpal Blade, so there's a slight chance it'd perform just as well.)

Dual Wielding something with a Kraken IS a real shame though, unless you're using it to spam WS from a different weapon type (Rampage or Vorpal Blade.) But if you're going to be using it for ranged WS, there really is no point in slowing down the TP gain.

[Lmnop]

Re: Dual Weild Mojo

I suppose this is horrible of me (read: prejudice), but I think the same kind of asshole Linkshell that would only let the RNGs lot them for Slugwinder spam are the same ones that haven't thought enough to realize that dual wielding anything with KC slows it down.

Admittidely, the Ridill does have much higher DoT (accuracy bonus 4 takes care of skill gap on sword/club for RNG), but... gaining half as much tp by not single-wielding kraken is hurting the DoT more, fo'sho.

[Feba]

Re: Dual Weild Mojo

Ridill + KClub isn't very good for ranged attacks...sweet for a Sword user though.

[Murphie]

Re: Dual Weild Mojo

Isn't that essentially what he said?

[Armando]

Re: Dual Weild Mojo

Well, time for the fun (see: arduous) task of comparing Ridill damage overall to Ridill+Joyeuse damage. Let's start with DoT. To simplify the calculations, we'll assume PDIF is 1.0 and fSTR = 0 (technically they're in different fSTR tiers, but they'll only be apart by 1 fSTR at best, and the gap between them would be 2 STR at best, usually 1 STR, so it's a non-issue.) If we assume once more that each weapon has equal chances for each kind of attack round, Ridill performs 100% more attacks and Joyeuse performs 50% more attacks than a normal weapon.

Ridill (DMG: 40 | Delay: 236)
Average damage per attack round: (40 * 2) = 80
Average damage/sec = 80 * 60/236 = 20.338983
Average damage/min = 1220.33898
Average TP per attack round: 12.6 TP
Average TP/sec: 3.203390
Average TP/min: 192.2034

Ridill + Joyeuse, Dual Wield II + Suppanomimi
Average damage per attack round: (40 * 2) + (35 * 1.5) = 132.5
Average damage/sec: 132.5 * 60/368 = 21.603261
Average damage/min: 1296.19566
Average TP per attack round: (5.0 * 2) + (5.0 * 1.5) = 17.5
Average TP/sec: 2.853261
Average TP/min: 171.19566

Surprisingly, despite Joyeuse's lower DMG AND overall extra attacks, the 80% Dual Wield reduction makes up for it, and Ridill/Joyeuse is actually slightly more damaging than Ridill alone, though at the expense of TP gain. However, Ridill/Joyeuse does get one extra hit in its WS. PLD can't use Ridill, so any job using Ridill is going to be spamming Vorpal Blades. Vorpal Blade has 1.0 fTP, 4 hits, and a 30% STR modifier. Once again, we'll assume fSTR is 0, and, say, 100 STR. The total modifier would be 30 * 0.83 = 24. PDIF = 1.0, as always. We'll assume no crits.

Ridill:
[(40 + 0 + 24) * 1.0 * 1.0] * 4 = 256 damage

Ridill/Joyeuse:
256 + [(35 + 0 + 24) * 1.0 * 1.0] = 315 damage

Using the TP/sec and damage/sec, now we'll compare how much damage would be done with each setup with both WS and the damage that would be done on the way to 100 TP.

Ridill:
Time needed for 100 TP: 100/3.203390 = 31.22 secs needed
Damage done in 32.22 secs: 32.22 * 20.338983 = 634.98304926 (let's round that for simplicity.)
Total damage in 31.22 secs: 256 + 635 = 891
Total damage/sec: 891/31.22 = 28.539398
Total damage/min: 1712.36388

Ridill + Joyeuse:
Time needed for 100 TP: 100/2.853261 = 35.05 secs, Vorpal Blade = 315
Damage done in 35.05 secs: 35.05 * 21.603261 = 757.19429805
Total damage done in 35.05 secs: 315 + 757 = 1072
Total damage/sec: 30.584879
Total damage/min: 1835.09274

Conclusion: If you have a Suppanomimi, Ridill + Joyeuse performs at least just as well as Ridill alone. Note that these numbers are not set in stone - with criticals thrown in, or fSTR thrown in, the percentage difference between both setup's Vorpal Blades may diminish, closing the gap in average damage (or the opposite could happen, and the gap could widen.) However, it's noteworthy that Ridill + Joyeuse technically gets more benefit out of Double Attack because Joyeuse has a higher single-hit proc rate. Also, Ridill/Joyeuse would most likely fall behind on bones, and definetely pull ahead on birds/piercing-weak mobs. This also fails to take into account any bonuses from Viking (Attack +12) or Tatami Shield (STR +5, Killer traits,) however.

[Mephisto]

Re: Dual Weild Mojo

Something else it doesn't take into account is that if you're just using Ridill and not joyeuse, you're not only able to use a sheild, but a different SJ. It's all situational of course, but yea.