Rate Ninja

[ItazuraNhomango]

Hi,

I'd like to know what the NIN community thinks how well a Ninja can fulfill the various roles in exp parties from Lv.10-75.

I know that's a very broad subject, so it would helpful to reduce it just a simple numerical rating for every 10 levels. The rating should range from 0-5; 0 means "none to negligible", while 5 means "top of the game".

If you plan to give a rating outside of the community norm, please list a (very) short reason why. (e.g. "Lv.30's Phys. DD: 4 -- because NIN/RNG with capped throwing can decimate preys with Juji Shurikens")

I'll look over the fellow up postings (hopefully there will be some), and compile the result. To start with, I'll provide some numbers I pull out of the thin air; feel free to copy the table, modify, then post:

Normal: NIN/WAR

L.10's/Tank: 3
L.10's/Phys. DD: 3
L.10's/Magic DD: 0
L.10's/Support: 1

L.20's/Tank: 3
L.20's/Phys. DD: 3
L.20's/Magic DD: 0
L.20's/Support: 1

L.30's/Tank: 3
L.30's/Phys. DD: 3/ 4(NIN/RNG)
L.30's/Magic DD: 0
L.30's/Support: 1

L.40's/Tank: 4
L.40's/Phys. DD: 3/ 4(NIN/RNG)
L.40's/Magic DD: 3/ 4(NIN/RDM or NIN/BLM)
L.40's/Support: 2

L.50's/Tank: 4
L.50's/Phys. DD: 3/ 4(NIN/RNG)
L.50's/Magic DD: 3/ 5(NIN/BLM w/elemental staves)
L.50's/Support: 2

L.60's/Tank: 4
L.60's/Phys. DD: 4
L.60's/Magic DD: 2/ 3(NIN/BLM w/elemental staves)
L.60's/Support: 2

L.70's/Tank: 4
L.70's/Phys. DD: 5
L.70's/Magic DD: 2
L.70's/Support: 2

Roles definitions:

Tank:
Holds monster's attention away from other party members, and do so with damage mitigation/avoidance to reduce MP usage for healing.

Physical DD:
Typically, attacks monster physically via melee weapon or ranged weapon. (Magic counts, as long as its damage is checked against the monster's defense instead of magical defense. This part of the definition shouldn't apply to Ninja.)

Magic DD:
Attacks monsters with "magic" (whether MP based, Ninjutsu based, or song based); attacks used must check against monster's magic defense instead of physical defense. (For Ninja, it'd be Ninjutsu, obviously.)

Support:
Enfeebles monster and/or enhances ability of party members or help them in their role. Also include specialized functions such as crowd control (i.e. sleeper), pulling, hate control (SATA on tank).

Healer:
Don't bother; you're Ninja. >_>

[Kakusaijin.]

Re: Rate Ninja

Normal: NIN/WAR

L.10's/Tank: 2
L.10's/Phys. DD: 3
L.10's/Magic DD: 0
L.10's/Support: 1 (NIN sucks for a while.)

L.20's/Tank: 3
L.20's/Phys. DD: 3 (Katana DMG starts picking up in this range.)
L.20's/Magic DD: 0
L.20's/Support: 2

L.30's/Tank: 5 (Utsusemi: Ni is 37.)
L.30's/Phys. DD: 4 (You have Berserk and DW II now.)
L.30's/Magic DD: 0
L.30's/Support: 2

L.40's/Tank: 5
L.40's/Phys. DD: 4 (DW III yay!)
L.40's/Magic DD: 0
L.40's/Support: 2

L.50's/Tank: 5
L.50's/Phys. DD: 4
L.50's/Magic DD: 0
L.50's/Support: 2

L.60's/Tank: 5
L.60's/Phys. DD: 5 (DW IV /joy!)
L.60's/Magic DD: 2/ 3(NIN/BLM w/elemental staves)
L.60's/Support: 2

L.70's/Tank: 3 (The new ToA areas are very NIN unfriendly. Weapons suck too.)
L.70's/Phys. DD: 5 (Haste gear, /drool.)
L.70's/Magic DD: 3 (You can nuke gods for decent damage at 75.)
L.70's/Support: 4 (A lot of times, this is all that you are for HNMs.)

[capitalistnihilist]

Re: Rate Ninja

L.70's/Tank: 3 (The new ToA areas are very NIN unfriendly. Weapons suck too.)
L.70's/Phys. DD: 5 (Haste gear, /drool.)
L.70's/Magic DD: 3 (You can nuke gods for decent damage at 75.)
L.70's/Support: 4 (A lot of times, this is all that you are for HNMs.)

Soooooo wrong. First of all you can't discount NIN as a tank simply because some mobs pwn you. If weapons suck so much how come they were the NIN burn target of choice pre-ToAU? Not only that but a well equipped and properly merited NIN can not only tank deco weapons but can solo them.

Since when is a NIN usually support for HNMs? Unless you call kiting support I think you are way off base here.

I see that your NIN is only 71 so maybe you haven't really had a chance to experience much of being an end game NIN yet.

Now with all that said, if you read the OPs post he is asking about NIN roles in an EXP situation, not gods or HNMs anyway. I'll only comment on 70+ cause that is all I can remember:

Tank: 5 (however you'll never be one at 75 if you choose your parties well, TP burn)
DD: 5 (A properly equipped NIN can outparse all but the most pimpest of WARs)
Magic DD: 0 (Not worth even bothering in EXP)
Support: 1 (I suppose if you get invovled in a sucky traditional party you can help enfeeble but I would hardly call this playing a support role. That would be like calling a DRK/NIN busting out rampages and the occasional Absorb spell a support job.

[Jei]

Re: Rate Ninja

After 37, nin's ability to hold hate imo relies on the nin's investment in tools... When I played nin from 37 to 51 I hardly even lose hate to BLM by spamming ninjutsu. I burnt through 99 of every tools within a level.

When I party with other nin they usually cast only the blind and slow and not much else. They lose hate all the time and only able to keep the mob on them for a few moments after provoke.

[Kakusaijin.]

Re: Rate Ninja

I see that your NIN is only 71 so maybe you haven't really had a chance to experience much of being an end game NIN yet.

I don't think that I need to be 75 to have seen a 75 Ninja operate before. o_o; Tanking is not the only job you have, if your shell is packed with enough Ninja. The shell I used to go gods with had so many Ninja that they had a few that just sat around and spun the wheel in coordinance with the Black Mages, thus my comment on support being so high.

Soooooo wrong. First of all you can't discount NIN as a tank simply because some mobs pwn you. If weapons suck so much how come they were the NIN burn target of choice pre-ToAU?

Easy, because they're squishy to every job. I was commenting on the level range, not just the last level of it, (75.) which is what you seem to be focused on. Weapons are a bitch to tank when you have an evade rate of about 20%. (Which is what I had at 70-71.) Whirl of Rage wounds you, and keeping up your shadows constantly thanks to that low evade rate makes it harder to hold hate. You're swinging less, and in my experience (As I've had trouble with these in the last few days.) things just die slower in effect.

I went out to Moon today at 72 this time, and had a bit of an easier time. Evading Whirl of Rage every few times made things a lot easier. My accuracy wasn't much better, but it was never bad in the first place. (I was using Sis Kebabi both times, since I'm a little heavy on Accuracy gear.) My normal attack evasion rate was noticably better, too. It was enough to where I could get off both Ni debuffs before I needed to start on my next Utsusemi. (Normally Ichi, since I like to try and stay on an Ichi cycle as much as I can, saving Ni for "Oh shit" situations.)

So yeah, as you said, it may be really great and peachy-keen and all that stuff at 75, but it's not a walk in the park for the levels before that. We don't all have merits. (I personally don't.)

/hijackthread off

[crowly]

Re: Rate Ninja

Ninja are very very rarely support on gods, about as often as DRK are main nukers, BLM are main enfeeble, and RDM are main SATAWS. One could do the same job that you might have an alliance of them do as far as support goes.

Not to mention ninjutsu helps with hate so might as well have them voking anyways...on things like kirin. Other gods shouldn't have more than 2 ninja in the alliance.

ToA and Zilaart xp areas are insanely good for ninja, I can chain into the hundreds "main tanking" as ninja in speed chain, and did at 74 too. Can also do a decent 6-7k or so an hour on IT trolls.

Mage weapons are a pain at any level, and around 70 they should still be high VT/IT... Think they're also weak to slashing, which would make them pretty nice for war and nin, ya >.>? I tanked them in a haubergeon.

Magic DD, sure...if you don't have any real DD's for some reason. Ninjutsu isn't exactly great damage. I've got the stave set and AFv2 head and I don't ever plan on being a magic DD unless it's for shits and giggles.

Jei, ninjutsu isn't all it's cracked up to be for hate, depending on the pt and mob, katanas can be better pre 60. 60/61+ depending on the ninja, melee damage > ninjutsu by far too. I hardly bother buying more than shihei at 75 now because on gods my hate is generated from SATAWS, and in xp ninjutsu lowers my damage and hate.

[Kakusaijin.]

Re: Rate Ninja

Mage anything sucks, always. Seriously. The only thing I hate more than Weapons are Goblins. And the only thing I hate more than Goblins are Goblin White Mages. {Banishga}II{Thanks for the offer, but I'll have to pass.}

I stopped using the damage Ninjutsu at 65. From 58-64 I used them only when I had an opportunity between swings, where I thought I could break attack animation with them. (Which was on-and-off effective.) After DW upgraded again, I just didn't bother. I still MB with mine, so I carry around stuff for Huton, but nothing else. (Aside from debuffs and Shihei.)