NIN tank?

[Crode]

Why do NINs main tank? I partied with 5 pts over the weekend that had NINs in them, and they tanked horribly. For instance "Hey pull hate off me, I need to Cast Utsumi: Ichi again" What is the point of being tank if you need to have hate pulled off you? The WHM have 2 more ppl to cure and use more mp in the process lessing the chance of EXP chains. I'm a WAR/MNK and can hold hate through the whole battle.

[InuTrunks]

Re: NIN tank?

Yes, but you are also level 20, most Ninja's I see level NIN because it's fun, but hard. Also, they don't want to spam Ninjutsu, and spend money.

When I was tanking, every 45 seconds I was spamming another round of Ichi spells, I held hate just fine.

[Goat]

Re: NIN tank?

Yeah later on NIN carry more hate and make it much easy on the whm over time.

[neighbortaru]

Re: NIN tank?

below 37, practically every NIN will need a buddy to provoke off them so that they can cast Utsu. However, IF they're good, they will still use up less MP than you (WAR/mnk) straight tanking a mob. The really, really good ones won't need a voke buddy at all.

[Omni]

Re: NIN tank?

yup. nin doesnt come into his tanking prime till after 40 imo. he does get utsu: ni at 37 but being able to get hasted at 40 makes things a lot smoother.

[aegina]

Re: NIN tank?

with 2 ninjas trading hate, it is possible to go an entire fight with no one ever taking any damage at all. ive seen it done many times before, that includes the dunes levels.

(no downtime)(can i have it?) (yes please)

i'll never go back to paladins again^^ edit: unless no ninja's are seeking lol...

and as for a war/mnk main tank? (thanks for the offer, but i'll have to pass) war/mnk's take up so much mp that i've seen whm's have to rest after every fight in pt's with a war/mnk tanking. i'll leave a pt before i use a war/mnk for a tank again, i don't care how well he holds hate...

[nanatsu]

Re: NIN tank?

I held hate just fine as nin/war and this was before 37. I was doing a decent job from 20 on and I tried my best not to have to need a backup provoker. And it's not like I was causing massive downtime pre-20. A couple of times during my nin run when i actually needed the backup to get the mob off of me, he couldn't. The thing is, a pre-37 nin that knows what he's doing will avoid 6 attacks at the very beginning of the fight. That's a lot of mp saved. Not to mention stopping things like screwdriver. Even if they need a backup tank, you get hit for what? Three times and then nin grabs hate again and dodges 3 more attacks. healing a war/mnk main tank requires much more mp to take care of than a nin who knows what he's doing even if they use a backup tank, and even before level 37. Why? because they negate attacks. Negate attacks = no mp used to heal. Either you're not getting the bigger picture or maybe you were dealing with a sub-average nin.

Double Post Edited:
Just so you know, when backup tanking for a good nin, you're lucky if you do get hit 3 times before he gets shadows back up. And with proper gear and enfeebling support he will dodge a lot of attacks in the first place, letting his timer come back up before he even needs you to provoke anything off of him. That's been my experience all the way up to 40.

[kuu]

Re: NIN tank?

Yes, but you are also level 20, most Ninja's I see level NIN because it's fun, but hard. Also, they don't want to spam Ninjutsu, and spend money.

When I was tanking, every 45 seconds I was spamming another round of Ichi spells, I held hate just fine.

At that level, "spamming ninjustu" makes a even worse ninja tank if not well off gil. Almost all ichi spells are next to worthless most of the time.

Their cast time takes too long and too easily interrupted
Their skill level hasn't caught up yet not having much effect
Their main means of holding hate is doing damage

Utsusemi, and possible one debuff, is all ninja's should do that level, and even then, maybe just utsusemi. Holding hate on damage alone, and spaming utsusemi, is about all that can be done.

I wouldn't advise anyone spaming spells till ni, it'll make you more fragile, and even less hate, and the very useful TP you're not gaining.

Unless you're fighting vt's or monsters you can evade well on, war/nin's will win out till about 30ish level.

[nanatsu]

Re: NIN tank?

At that level, "spamming ninjustu" makes a even worse ninja tank if not well off gil. Almost all ichi spells are next to worthless most of the time.

Their cast time takes too long and too easily interrupted
Their skill level hasn't caught up yet not having much effect
Their main means of holding hate is doing damage

Utsusemi, and possible one debuff, is all ninja's should do that level, and even then, maybe just utsusemi. Holding hate on damage alone, and spaming utsusemi, is about all that can be done.

I wouldn't advise anyone spaming spells till ni, it'll make you more fragile, and even less hate, and the very useful TP you're not gaining.

Unless you're fighting vt's or monsters you can evade well on, war/nin's will win out till about 30ish level.

I didn't spam ninjutsu, but I found that the debuffing ninjutsu make far better hate building tools than elemental ninjutsu. I cast them even when they had already landed and have been able to use them to turn the mob back towards me when provoke wasn't up.

[InuTrunks]

Re: NIN tank?

Meh, it worked for me, and I didn't need a backup tank, this was about a year ago, so I can't tell you how I did it.

[Aeni]

Re: NIN tank?

At low levels, even a well equipped NIN can't tank properly. A WAR/MNK can still out tank, considering that NINs have lower overall vitality and the fact that they wear cloth armor doesn't help any. Evasion boosts aren't apparent and people are deceived by believing that it is possible (People forget about the cap on every stat boost at every level)

In my experience at low levels, the best NINs are the ones that take the time to prepare and also research what monsters would be optimal to fight. Slow hitting monsters that rarely double attack (Like beetles and gigas) are quite tankable. Pugils are a NINs worse nightmare and thank goodness when my PT did it, they had a PLD in the party as well (At those levels, PLDs can be used as secondary DD and their sword leads into many good skill chains)

The only advice to low level NINs is to practice timing. Take an EP mob for your level and solo them for a bit. You can use exp rings to make this worthwhile. You can also throw in trying to cast elementals, but this is a complete waste of time and money (IMO) until you get the Ni versions of these spells. At lower levels, I highly advise NINs to spend money on tools that make a difference: kaginawa, sarui-ran, jusatsu and let's not forget shihei. Carry some shinobi tabi as well. I wouldn't get kodoku unless you're fighting a high defense monster in which you'd need some DoT (But I don't know how much hate that will give the caster)

I wouldn't worry about shurikens seeing as how pricey they are at those levels. In your offtime, however, get a boomerang and raise your throwing skill. At higher levels, depending on your financial security, having shurikens gives you an added option to not only increase hate, but speed up TP gain lost from all that casting (especially once you're being figured into level 3 skill chains)

[Jei]

Re: NIN tank?

Every jobs have their advantage/disadvantage which can change as they level. The party will have to compensate and cooperate with each other to pull out each member's potential.

Same goes with any other jobs. Think about it, a tank CAN'T tank without healer. Nor the healer can heal without a tank.

In your case, ninja, at lower level having only 1 utsusemi/3 shadows is their characteristic. Having a backup tank is how you can make it work. The advantage of nin is that, on enemies hitting for 100+ a hit, 3 dodge (or 6 if the recast time is up) can really safe a lot of healings. The disadvantage is of course their lack of tool to build hate at low level and the lack of defense/vit. Having a second tank to voke the mob while utsusemi isn't up is just the way to make things easier. You are on the same team, after all.

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: NIN tank?

i'll never go back to paladins again^^

Sadly, that opinion is all too widespread yet people still expect the 75 paladin to appear and tank the mobs a ninja can't. Makes me wonder how they're supposed to level and compensate for lost xp on HNMs when they're viewed as such a poor tank alongside ninja.

[aegina]

Re: NIN tank?

At low levels, even a well equipped NIN can't tank properly. A WAR/MNK can still out tank, considering that NINs have lower overall vitality and the fact that they wear cloth armor doesn't help any. Evasion boosts aren't apparent and people are deceived by believing that it is possible (People forget about the cap on every stat boost at every level)

In my experience at low levels, the best NINs are the ones that take the time to prepare and also research what monsters would be optimal to fight. Slow hitting monsters that rarely double attack (Like beetles and gigas) are quite tankable. Pugils are a NINs worse nightmare and thank goodness when my PT did it, they had a PLD in the party as well (At those levels, PLDs can be used as secondary DD and their sword leads into many good skill chains)

at low levels? when is this? before level 12? lol
ninjas are great tanks, they just can't tank solo. have them trade hate and they're awesome

[Jei]

Re: NIN tank?

that's true. from 12 to 36, 2 ninja working together makes any levelling mobs a walk in the park. My favourite levelling moments have to go to Garlaige from 32 to 37. I LOVE having 2 ninja and a thf in this level range. We literally anihilated the whole place getting crazy exp and the mobs can rarely do any damage to the 2 ninja.

I don't look down on paladin. But the thing about levelling however is about kill more, and kill fast. When you have a ninja tank, you can literally go for a stronger/harder hitting mobs and the MP needed for healing really got minimized. More MP = less down time = faster and more pulls = more exp. Unless this situation got changed, people will pick ninja for tanking over pld for the most part.

There are places that PLD tanks are better like KRT. Some place like sky it doesn't matter who tanks. But I wouldn't pick a pld tank for giant birds in tavnazian for example.

Funny things I've noticed. Most of my 75 pld friends also level their nin to 75 for their second jobs. So we don't really debate much about who tanks better really. We just tell them to change to the one more suitable to what we're hunting.