Should Utsusemi: Ni be level 38 or above?

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: Should Utsusemi: Ni be level 38 or above?

Still not seeing a viable reason why Utsusemi: Ichi shouldn't be sufficient for ninja subs and why Utsusemi: Ni shouldn't be made 38+.

[ibroyles]

Re: Should Utsusemi: Ni be level 38 or above?

Still not seeing a viable reason why Utsusemi:Ni should be made 38+.

[Omni]

Re: Should Utsusemi: Ni be level 38 or above?

'its like you and emily are here~ and me and joshua are here~ its its its like a tie!'

[Lmnop]

Re: Should Utsusemi: Ni be level 38 or above?

Ok, at least on my server. No one lets war/nins tank jack shit. That's why your precious :Ni isn't overpowered. Because a Nin/war 75 can solo 3 Decent Challenges while talking on AIM and cooking, while a Dark Knight or a Warrior fears most EPs. Because a nin can gear up for DD and outclass thieves, samurai, dark knights, and dragoons in sky parties. Because Ninjas get Dual Wield 28 and attack non-stop. Because Ninjas have an A rank katana, evade, parry, ninjutsu, and throwing. Because Ninjas never have to rest and are infinitely easier for support mages to work with in Exp than any other tank. Because Ninjas can wear pretty much all the best equipment in the game. Because if a rdm can't solo it, at least a ninja can duo or trio it.

Jei made the comparison earlier between Utsu: Ni and Regen II and III. The real comparison is between that spell and Dual Wield. No War/nin or Thf/nin gets to abuse the delay reduction the way Nin main does.

EDIT: listed thief in my list twice... heh, I really feel for the thieves.

[Rodin]

Re: Should Utsusemi: Ni be level 38 or above?

Ok, at least on my server. No one lets war/nins tank jack shit. That's why your precious :Ni isn't overpowered. Because a Nin/war 75 can solo 3 Decent Challenges while talking on AIM and cooking, while a Dark Knight or a Warrior fears most EPs. Because a nin can gear up for DD and outclass thieves, samurai, dark knights, and thieves in sky parties. Because Ninjas get Dual Wield 28 and attack non-stop. Because Ninjas have an A rank katana, evade, parry, ninjutsu, and throwing. Because Ninjas never have to rest and are infinitely easier for support mages to work with in Exp than any other tank. Because Ninjas can wear pretty much all the best equipment in the game. Because if a rdm can't solo it, at least a ninja can duo or trio it.

Jei made the comparison earlier between Utsu: Ni and Regen II and III. The real comparison is between that spell and Dual Wield. No War/nin or Thf/nin gets to abuse the delay reduction the way Nin main does.

Beautiful....very nicely put

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: Should Utsusemi: Ni be level 38 or above?

Jei made the comparison earlier between Utsu: Ni and Regen II and III. The real comparison is between that spell and Dual Wield. No War/nin or Thf/nin gets to abuse the delay reduction the way Nin main does.

No, you just get to equip Ridill and Joyeuse.

I'll respond to the rest of your ninja envy post when I have some time on my hands, however, I'm still not seeing anyone answer the question why other jobs need Utsusemi: Ni.

[Aeolus]

Re: Should Utsusemi: Ni be level 38 or above?

Lmnop just gave you "The" reason. Just get over it. You are unique and people know it. When they raise the lv cap where is the point in making Uts:Ni 38?

[ibroyles]

Re: Should Utsusemi: Ni be level 38 or above?

No, you just get to equip Ridill and Joyeuse.

How can you use something like that to "equal" out two jobs? One job you get the unique benefit by just leveling that job to 75, another requires an extremely rare drop? So rare even some of the BEST WARs I've ever had the pleasure of meeting simply cannot get their hands on one(Ridill that is). Someone is blinded by "grass is greener on the other side" mentality.

Double Post Edited:
Further, your question has been answered. The fact that you are ignoring what people are telling you is just making it frustrating continuing this conversation over the internet. You posted this here for feedback, now that people are giving you it you choose to ignore it. Really dissapointed in that. Considering you haven't even done much to back your views other than effectively "stir the pot" with your one sentence comments, I still haven't seen a valid reason why Utsu:Ni should be Lv38+ in your opinion.

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: Should Utsusemi: Ni be level 38 or above?

Please point out where someone explained why Utsusemi: Ichi isn't sufficient for other jobs to fulfill their role and why, therefore, they require Utsusemi: Ni as well. Until then, I will repeat the question until someone provides the answer.

[Omni]

Re: Should Utsusemi: Ni be level 38 or above?

Ok, at least on my server. No one lets war/nins tank jack shit. That's why your precious :Ni isn't overpowered. Because a Nin/war 75 can solo 3 Decent Challenges while talking on AIM and cooking, while a Dark Knight or a Warrior fears most EPs. Because a nin can gear up for DD and outclass thieves, samurai, dark knights, and thieves in sky parties. Because Ninjas get Dual Wield 28 and attack non-stop. Because Ninjas have an A rank katana, evade, parry, ninjutsu, and throwing. Because Ninjas never have to rest and are infinitely easier for support mages to work with in Exp than any other tank. Because Ninjas can wear pretty much all the best equipment in the game. Because if a rdm can't solo it, at least a ninja can duo or trio it.

Jei made the comparison earlier between Utsu: Ni and Regen II and III. The real comparison is between that spell and Dual Wield. No War/nin or Thf/nin gets to abuse the delay reduction the way Nin main does.

abuse DW delay? that's our forte. Thf get triple atk and pretty much atk non-stop as well. so whats your point? oh and thf gets an A+ in dagger, A- evasion (+evasion traits), A- parry also too. and pls dont use throwing as a point of arguement. with the patch, u cant tank and throw at the same time. i mean i guess you 'could' but then again, i dont like throwing just for the sake of throwing. war with double atk enhancements atk pretty darn fast too. war tp gain is one of the fastest ive seen.
and dont speak for your whole server. im sure the other 2500 people you dont know are doing stuff that you are not aware about. even if war/nin dont tank on your server, then shouldnt ichi be enough? if you arent tanking anything ichi should be sufficient. unless you find the 4s cast time too cumbersome...

Double Post Edited:

Lmnop just gave you "The" reason. Just get over it. You are unique and people know it. When they raise the lv cap where is the point in making Uts:Ni 38?

thats hardly 'the' reason. he totally omitted all other jobs' qualities, while only focusing on what they 'lack' which isnt as much as he makes it out to be.

[kuu]

Re: Should Utsusemi: Ni be level 38 or above?

I wonder how many have seen war/nin's 74+ tank for real...

We have only a few ways of tanking, Eat shadows and say "get it off me" or kite, even then with multiple tanks.

Eating shadows is never an efficent way to tank. Not only do you have to hope ichi doesn't get interrupted, but special attacks don't rape your shadows first.

War/nin's do decently, having provoke can maintain hate on fly.They are usually joined with other tanks. It's not in the same catagory with nin/wars except when kite.

having a 50+ skill difference in eva and tools debuff does make a difference...

Edit: Oh don't forget AF boots... that increase movement speed for nin makes it heck a easier to kite.

[Lmnop]

Re: Should Utsusemi: Ni be level 38 or above?

Envy eh? Yeah I suppose you could call it that. You must understand, I'm a warrior through-and-through and it pains me to see how much people love on warrior these days. I don't want it to become the next Ranger where it's War/nin or bust. I like my class because it's always been my class, not because it's the most potent. What I'm getting at here is that it's not that I want to be better than Ninjas. It's not that I wish I could keep up with Dragoons in TP gain, either. It's that Ninjas are better than Dark Knights -- I'm not even in the equation to feel envy.

Even with Triple Attack, Thf don't attack non-stop. I see it go off even less than my Double Attack. And tell me, When you tank HNM, how much do the thieves get to do? I'm not even in one, so this is an honest question (hard to camp when you only play 10 hours a week... heh). From people I've talked to and my friends who don't even touch their THF 75s, their LSs use them for opening SATAWS -- even though a Drk/Thf or a Sam/thf will do just as good. And then maybe they come in at the end to get the TH tap. But once again, maybe your mileage has varied. I'd love to hear that thieves are doing better.

But I'm still talking about what other jobs are lacking, aren't I? Well, interestingly enough, my title is "Re: Should Utsusemi: Ni be level 38 or above?"... you want S-E to take more away from those jobs. Ok, why other jobs can't operate sufficiently with Ichi:

Because thieves don't get to do anything anyway, might as well let them be awesome at tanking in small, low hate parties against certain mobs.
Because sometimes your recast timer can't keep up with shadow stripping AoE. And guess what, those attacks love to only take 1-2 shadows off nin main while stripping all shadows on all sub nins. Having Ni would just reduce mp drain a bit.
wait... why am I making this list. Let me call attention to something deeper:

Why the hell do you need a list like this. Why the hell do you have a subjob?!?!?! Why can I sub SA and TA and Meditate, and Souleater, and Curaga, and Dispel, and Ballad.

Grizzlebeard, tell me why you feel you need Provoke.

Maybe it isn't monumental being able to sub :Ni. There, you happy? You're right, there's no reason for rng/nin to be able to use a scroll of Utsusemi:Ni and gain 3 extra shadows every 45 seconds when they're willing to devote 1 second and 100 gil. It's obvious the only response to this thread is to agree that Utsusemi:Ni should be raised to level 38.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go post about how irritated I am that Ninjas and those Overpowered Dragoons get to sub my Precious Berserk and OMFG WARCRY!

[ibroyles]

Re: Should Utsusemi: Ni be level 38 or above?

Even with Triple Attack, Thf don't attack non-stop. I see it go off even less than my Double Attack. And tell me, When you tank HNM, how much do the thieves get to do? I'm not even in one, so this is an honest question (hard to camp when you only play 10 hours a week... heh). From people I've talked to and my friends who don't even touch their THF 75s, their LSs use them for opening SATAWS -- even though a Drk/Thf or a Sam/thf will do just as good. And then maybe they come in at the end to get the TH tap. But once again, maybe your mileage has varied. I'd love to hear that thieves are doing better.

Like I said earlier, I'm gonna go tank Byakko now with my NIN sub job. /sarcasm

(to asnwer you question, no thieves are not doing better. your analysis was perfect. the only thing we excel in end game is hate control--which nobody gives a shit about cause almost anyone can do it SUB JOB -- treasure hunter, and small group tanking -- I need support there, because I can't sub NIN and WHM at the same time to keep myself alive, unlike some jobs *ahem*)

edit: and I feel the need to point out, I'm not just complaining about what job I leveled. I enjoy playing THF immensely. But that's because of the role we currently play at this point in time. Take away Ni, and that takes away the only role THF MAIN can play besides Treasure Hunter. Suffice to say I didn't level THF for treasure hunter solely(although it is very nice), I leveled it for hate control(which died out at 60+) and post 60, the ability to do things with my small group of friends. Is that so much to ask?

[Caspian]

Re: Should Utsusemi: Ni be level 38 or above?

I think I may be jumping into a hornet's nest, but here goes.
The question posed it "Should Utsusemi: Ni be raise to level 38+?". Meaning, is there something wrong with the way things are now, and a change should be made. You keep demanding that people give reasons why it should stay the same, yet the gist of what I've seen your few posts is "I dont feel unique, and a couple other jobs can tank so-so with my ability." I'm sorry, but unless EVERYONE starts playing war/nin and tanking just as well or better than ninja, then its horribly unlikely it will be changed. Why? B/c it doesnt need to be changed. It doesnt hurt you that the few jobs that use /nin endgame have an extra layer of backup incase shit goes down and they need a few extra seconds of protection for you (arguably the best tank in the game) to reestablish hate. You demand that people give you multiple reasons why things should stay the same, giving very few, and all of which in my opinion are poor reasons for why it should be changed. The fact is, a few jobs being able to sub utsu: ni doesnt change the way you play your job and makes a microscopic impact on party invites. This thread started out as a reasonable question. The question was answered on the first page, yet certain people are unwilling to accept the fact that this aspect of the game is unlikely to change and have decided to piss and moan about how its unfair and they're not 'special'.
I guess I dont understand this attitude of "I feel gimped, gimp someone else to make me feel better" Except, I really dont see how ninjas are truly gimped, greater difficulty in holding hate? Yes, but they're still preferred by near every party I've been in as a main tank.
....interesting....

[Omni]

Re: Should Utsusemi: Ni be level 38 or above?

before you start generalizing and speaking for other people maybe you need to rethink some things.

OBVIOUSLY, things wont change, none of us are developers or have influence in anything. last time i checked this was a forum board and you usually have discussions here. unless you want to have a whole thread of posts agreeing to 1 opinion, why in the heck post anyway? you reiiterated that it was a question of SHOULD it be changed. now, if having an opinion for or against something is called pissing and moaning then i dont feel i should discuss any opinions anymore.

and just random: with regards to thf and everyone and their moms subbing it to fuidama, imo (if thats ok with you guys, i dont want to sound like im moaning ya?) i think its shit also. thf get shafted pretty hard after 60, even with the assassin trait, it did not help their situation much. to make matters worse, with players that love to generalize how if one person plays this job this way it means all players of that job are that way, it just totally kills a jobs usefulness. so many players try to find one, end all answer for everything thus hurting jobs like thf.

some people take an opinion to be some personal shot against you and your job. its just a different of opinion and regardless the game will stand as it is. we ALL know that. if you want people to agree with you, then why dont you go find another thread that praises utsu:ni or maybe u might as well start one yourself. post 15 replies saying why you guys love it. since if anyone with an opinion to you is just pissing, moaning and beyond delusional to accept the hard facts of ffxi life. oh noes! /sarcasrm/ seroiusly guys (and gals if any), its a discussion. if ur going to get ur feathers ruffled over a hypothetical then all i have to say is, o well.