Should Utsusemi: Ni be level 38 or above?

[kuu]

Re: Should Utsusemi: Ni be level 38 or above?

As the warrior stated earlier, try lvl war to 74 without NI and be a tank, doesnt work. U try lvl a thief after lvl 60 when SAM DRK MNK WAR eve DRG/THF all get taken over you for exp since there sata ws can do more than a thiefs.

That is why they gave thf assasin trait.
And triple attack trait.
And tp gains are completely different.

War and Drk /thf all gain tp much slower, and a drg isn't really damaging SATA.

Also without the dex bonus.

Subjobs open up more options rather then bump out others.

Thfs will still have their spot.

[Omni]

Re: Should Utsusemi: Ni be level 38 or above?

As the warrior stated earlier, try lvl war to 74 without NI and be a tank, doesnt work. U try lvl a thief after lvl 60 when SAM DRK MNK WAR eve DRG/THF all get taken over you for exp since there sata ws can do more than a thiefs.

tell that to some of the warriors on this forum. they would disagree with you. war with a good support team can tank sufficiently.

after 60 i dont see where sam, drg, drk, mnk take over thf. the only job that imo that hands down takes over a thf in renkei situations is a war/nin using rampage.
i think its pretty even up until 66.

@60-65
-drk/thf: with fuidama guillotine is not that impressive since its a multihit ws. with sickle moon, dmg is pretty nice but i'd still prefer a thf for the better hate placing of normal fuidama too.

-mnk: at this lvl rng, mnks will be starting distortion. given the assumption distortion is the renkei of choice since 95% of the time it is. they dont compete for the same pt slot as thfs do.

-sam: does not have any good fuidama skills till tachi: gekko imo.

-drg: same as sam. unless you like fuidama double thrust....

@66-75
here is when thf does loses some of its edge.

-drk: can now land one of the hardest hitting fuidama ws around. spinslash.

-mnk: 'can' sub thf but losing out on total DoT w/o /war wouldnt be much of a benefit. /war just has too many goodies for mnk. once they get asuran fist, they usually dont belong in the sam pt since asuran fist is a darkness renkei.

-sam: again, they are competing for the different slots in the pt. fuidama tachi: gekko closes darkness renkei. even after they get kasha, most sams still let gekko go the majority of the time.

-drg: while it is in the same slot as thf for renkei, i still prefer a thf's sharkbite output over wheeling thrust.

so i guess what im trying to say is that, thf doesnt really get 'taken over' by every other melee job out there. they hold their own very well. they have the ability to place hate on anyone w/o the use of ws. that is an abilty you cannot under appreciate.

this is soooo off topic..... O.o

gizzlebeard said: "It's acceptable for other jobs to have Utsusemi: Ichi if all they're using shadows for is an emergency save in case they get hate but my question is why do they need Ni as well?" isnt utsusemi, other than for war, mainly just as a safety net? i think thats the problem, anyone can sub nin and be a blink tank, more or less. which is pretty much the core of ninja.

[JP_Ikari]

Re: Should Utsusemi: Ni be level 38 or above?

What makes NIN be NIN anyway? Shadows is probably a big reason, but great debuffers, fast hitters, and can both be a DD and TANK at any given moment. WAR's can tank if you tweak your party configuration (I belive in Nny), and PLD's need refresh to be able to tank for a party, without it, a party will lag in exp. NIN are so great that any configuration they can tank. Granted, people have to realize that you're a NIN anyway, but still have that over any of the tanks. Just because Utsu can be subed and used by other classes doesn't take anything away from a NIN.

And if NIN's are built as tanks, how come all I see from their gear is RNG Accu and ATK?? Maybe there's another reason why NIN's are so great. Ever bothered looking to raise yer throwing skills?

JP

[Jei]

Re: Should Utsusemi: Ni be level 38 or above?

seeing how regen 2 is level 40+ for whm, I think it would be fair for nin to move utsu 2 to 40+ too... These 2 spells kinda make whm and nin exclusive

[Omni]

Re: Should Utsusemi: Ni be level 38 or above?

What makes NIN be NIN anyway? Shadows is probably a big reason, but great debuffers, fast hitters, and can both be a DD and TANK at any given moment. WAR's can tank if you tweak your party configuration (I belive in Nny), and PLD's need refresh to be able to tank for a party, without it, a party will lag in exp. NIN are so great that any configuration they can tank. Granted, people have to realize that you're a NIN anyway, but still have that over any of the tanks. Just because Utsu can be subed and used by other classes doesn't take anything away from a NIN.

And if NIN's are built as tanks, how come all I see from their gear is RNG Accu and ATK?? Maybe there's another reason why NIN's are so great. Ever bothered looking to raise yer throwing skills?

JP

if that's directed towards me, yes i have raised my throwing skills. im 10 lvls from cap. which is pretty darn good considering how annoying it is to lvl throwing. my conclusion in xp pt is that, its not worth it for what you get out of it. even with manji shuriken, the only viable shuriken worth spamming even given its cost, you dont really gain all that much utility out of it. and especially now that rng atks have been adjusted w/ respect to distance, you can't throw shurikens and expect them to land and/or deal maximum dmg AND tank at the same time. thats the thing, nin arent built as tanks. we just play them that way.

i guess u are right, subbing nin doesnt really take away anything from nin. then again, i guess that goes the same for thfs and whms as well.

[ibroyles]

Re: Should Utsusemi: Ni be level 38 or above?

Sorry but not just anybody can sub utsusemi and tank. Most jobs that sub nin are doing it because they have something else that innately backs it, or are loading up on haste spells/equips. I.E. THF can obviously tank well with /NIN with their evasion bonuses, stick them in a small party with support and you've got a very strong tank(albeit low on hate). MNK, RDM, WHM benefit from accesible haste gear and/or spells that makes them "decent" solo or small group tanks. WAR also benefits from accesible haste gear in addition with a stouter defense to back them up -- with the support they can be very good tanks in XP parties obviously.

Now where do the rest of the jobs stand? Do you really think DRG, PLD, DRK, SMN, BLM etc. can just straight sub nin and blink tank perfectly? No, people that are using nin sub are using it because their main jobs abilities/spells/traits/equips enhance that ability. Why should we diminish their choice in a great sub which just makes sense? I think it would be an ofal idea to raise the level req for Utsu:Ni, but if it ever did happen it would just be one more thing to work around.

[Omni]

Re: Should Utsusemi: Ni be level 38 or above?

i didnt say perfectly blink tank, but more or less. you get a free 9 hits with /nin, maybe more if you evade a few attacks here and there. pld/nin do tank pretty well, though might need a little bit on the hate mgmt but still, it's doable.

[ibroyles]

Re: Should Utsusemi: Ni be level 38 or above?

PLD/NIN gets stripped of shadows in less than 15 secs. They are good for temporary cover/utsu recasting, but after that they will get hit. For soloing lesser mobs a PLD could probably do better as PLD/WAR, not worrying about utsu recast and getting TP for Spirit Taker(quicker with double attack) to keep themselves going. For harder mobs though, isnt PLD/NIN temp cover blink tank the kind of strategy that SHOULD be allowed. I mean if everything was cut and dry this game wouldn't be half as interesting. Its this type of strategical job combination that keeps things interesting in formulating strategies for difficult new HNM fights.

[kuu]

Re: Should Utsusemi: Ni be level 38 or above?

Very often people try to to make calculator into a computer just because they can do math for sake of arguement.

While they share common features, it is the details that can fill the black hole.

Ninja main has so much more then utsusenmi ichi and gimped ni. Not only the 30+ different scroll spells, but traits and the ability to sub /war, and beyond, like eq.

A war/nin has crap eva, no debuff, no many things. They can take a licking and eat the rest with shadows, but they're a far cry from how ninja's do it.

And pld/nin is only good for cover and flash mostly. I don't ever see this unless there is a "main" tank, like a ninja, who can't keep up due to the enemy.

And a thf/nin is mearly a holder, any kind of hate is going to screw them over. Worse, any Aoe/go through WS will, destory the tank status as quick as his whm casting c5.

It is litter with details with their own strats. I feel no remorse when any ja's gets popular whether it be SATA, or utsusemi. It usually points to insecurities of a player who doesn't use his job to their full talent, like not carrying anythng else except a stack of shihei.

[Omni]

what details?

Very often people try to to make calculator into a computer just because they can do math for sake of arguement.

While they share common features, it is the details that can fill the black hole.

Ninja main has so much more then utsusenmi ichi and gimped ni. Not only the 30+ different scroll spells, but traits and the ability to sub /war, and beyond, like eq.

A war/nin has crap eva, no debuff, no many things. They can take a licking and eat the rest with shadows, but they're a far cry from how ninja's do it.

And pld/nin is only good for cover and flash mostly. I don't ever see this unless there is a "main" tank, like a ninja, who can't keep up due to the enemy.

And a thf/nin is mearly a holder, any kind of hate is going to screw them over. Worse, any Aoe/go through WS will, destory the tank status as quick as his whm casting c5.

It is litter with details with their own strats. I feel no remorse when any ja's gets popular whether it be SATA, or utsusemi. It usually points to insecurities of a player who doesn't use his job to their full talent, like not carrying anythng else except a stack of shihei.

i wouldnt go as far as calling it insecurities. its sort of wanting to be able to be unique. for instance. lv. 24, both war and nin can wear chainmail. both war and nin can dual wield and can cast utsuemi. other than katanas, its almost the same. lv. 59, both war and nin can put on haubie. both can utsu and cast elementals and enfeebles. granted, nin has better versions of some of them, but the truth is, i think we want our own stand out ability. war: aggressor, mnk: kick atks, chakra, chi blast, thf: assasin, th2, rdm: convert, refresh, blm: ga spells, d2, pld: cover, sentinel... etc. yea it sux that its popular, though thats the whole point of this discussion.

what 30+ scrolls are you talking about? i believe its 23. 6 elementals x2. hojo x2, kurayami x2, dokumori x2, tonko x2, utsusemi x2, jubaku x1. 6 of them are practically useless (elemental ichi), 2 more arent all that great (dokumori) and 1 is just redundant (tonko). you make it sound like all 30+ scrolls (23 actually) are great and wonderful. hardly the case, i dont remember why i even bought ichi elementals let alone dokumori. i never bothered using kurayami/hojo ichi before their ni versions since casting them would take a total of about 10 seconds not counting the times you are likely to be interrupted. jubaku ichi alone is already annoying enough to work into my initial debuff cycle.

what traits do we have that are unique to nin alone? subtle blow, dual wield, stealth, resist xxxx? and equipment? i dont think theres any nin only equipment that makes any other job close to be envious other than nin af boots ;p. any of the equips nin wears can be wore by pretty much all other melee. war shinobi gi is ok for the regen i suppose. yasha? hmm, tough call, not super useful other than for the enmity.

[ibroyles]

Re: Should Utsusemi: Ni be level 38 or above?

Wow, the grass is always greener on the other side huh? Maybe you don't have some incredibly "unique" ability, but your ability to blink tank and still hold hate the way you do is second to none. Shouldn't that be enough?

Yeah, yeah everyone can cast Utsu:Ichi and Ni at Lv74, but nobody can do that AND still sub WAR for the ability to hold hate while doing it. That's your "uniqueness," the fact that its inherent to your job, and you can still choose a sub to benefit you even further.

Even if you did want something extra unique, why take something as valuable as Utsusemi: Ni away from the few jobs which can use it as sub for end game activites? Why not petition for a job ability at Lv40 such as EVA or CRIT up ability. I don't know why everyone focuses on NERFS instead of ADDITIONS, keep taking stuff away and we'll be left with little to work with in this game of ours.

[Omni]

Re: Should Utsusemi: Ni be level 38 or above?

that maybe the nin of yesteryear but holding hate isnt what its cracked up to be now. yea, before the enmity adjustment, i wouldnt have any complaints. holding hate was simple w/o enmity gear even. that isnt the case now if you've tried tanking past 60 w/o hate placement. renkei hate placement doesnt really count since the mob is close to dead by then. before you begin down the road that i'm not doing my job as a proper tank i'll ease your pain by letting you know i do what i can. enmity switches, debuffs, vokes and mbs. however im not saying its horrible, its no where near how it was. before enmity adjustment, i can do all of the above and hold hate steady until renkei. actually, at times many light starters (drg, war and sometimes rng) would have trouble turning the mob. now, it doesnt take much for the mob to get a.d.d.

this wasnt the thread was about. it was about utsu post 38. hence the consistant talk about whether or not utsu should be 37 or 'nerfed' to 38+. additions would be great. eva addition sort of like thf's evasion bonus at 15 and 30 would be interesting to see.

of course its always greener on the other side, whats so wrong with that? i think its fair, you dont. simple as that.

[ibroyles]

Re: Should Utsusemi: Ni be level 38 or above?

Enough arguing, I'm gonna go tank Byakko now with my NIN sub job. Have fun basking in your sorrows of non-uniqueness.

[Rodin]

Re: Should Utsusemi: Ni be level 38 or above?

that maybe the nin of yesteryear but holding hate isnt what its cracked up to be now. yea, before the enmity adjustment, i wouldnt have any complaints. holding hate was simple w/o enmity gear even. that isnt the case now if you've tried tanking past 60 w/o hate placement. renkei hate placement doesnt really count since the mob is close to dead by then. before you begin down the road that i'm not doing my job as a proper tank i'll ease your pain by letting you know i do what i can. enmity switches, debuffs, vokes and mbs. however im not saying its horrible, its no where near how it was. before enmity adjustment, i can do all of the above and hold hate steady until renkei. actually, at times many light starters (drg, war and sometimes rng) would have trouble turning the mob. now, it doesnt take much for the mob to get a.d.d.

this wasnt the thread was about. it was about utsu post 38. hence the consistant talk about whether or not utsu should be 37 or 'nerfed' to 38+. additions would be great. eva addition sort of like thf's evasion bonus at 15 and 30 would be interesting to see.

of course its always greener on the other side, whats so wrong with that? i think its fair, you dont. simple as that.

Sounds like you're not using debuffing and elemental ninjitsu. I've had a NIN/WAR in full EVA and haste gear, no enmity whatsoever tank in an XP party, and he held hate just fine, he'd use his debuffs once or twice a fight, and would magic burst on the mob. Didn't seem hard, and he kept hate fine, even with two BLMs MBing with -ga spells. ( SMN sub and Nobles Tunice w/ NIN tank, dont' need RDM or BRD >_>)

[Omni]

Re: Should Utsusemi: Ni be level 38 or above?

Enough arguing, I'm gonna go tank Byakko now with my NIN sub job. Have fun basking in your sorrows of non-uniqueness.

wow, good jorb!
get over yourself guy.