Should Utsusemi: Ni be level 38 or above?

[Grizzlebeard]

Before I begin, I realise this will be a hot potato but of late I've been questioning why every job 74+ can essentially have access to the one spell-like ability that makes us what we are.

Sure, our evasion skill plays no small part in our tanking role but no-one can deny the advent of Utsusemi: Ni at 37 is the turning point in our tanking career. The real issue I have is the fact every other job gets to acquire this class-defining ability. I don't see anyone else receiving regen 2, haste, refresh, D2, TH2, etc so why should any other job out there receive Ni. I understand the three shadows limit as a sub but that really doesn't hurt so much considering they also have Utsu Ichi to fall back on.

Other jobs bring their own strengths to the table whereas our main role is tanking in parties and DD a distant second if we can find the right party setup. I'd be interested in people's opinions on the idea of upping Utsusemi: Ni to level 38 or above thus negating it's ability to be used by non ninjas.

[Omni]

Re: Should Utsusemi: Ni be level 38 or above?

it would be nice since that would make it our job defining trait. since they pretty much gave away just about everything nin has to offer w/ nin sub it be nice to have a unique ability. and no, ni elementals dont cut it ^^

[kuu]

Re: Should Utsusemi: Ni be level 38 or above?

You do realized that ni: subbed is gimped? 3 shadows instead of 4.

It's bias and hard to say what is balance and unbalance and should be subbed.

Should elemental seal be given to non blms?

Should SATA be gven to non thfs?

How about teleports?

Should stun be lvl 38 so it can't be subed either?

There are many many many things that are useful, subbed.

[IamNate]

Re: Should Utsusemi: Ni be level 38 or above?

Give ya something to try, take your war subs past 37, take 'em to 75 if you can, try a war party as war/nin where you rely on utsusemi to save your ass half of the time, attempting to juggle the mob back and forth from the other warriors, and tell us then how you wouldnt love for a faster utsu cast time / more utsusemi to fall back on.

Sure, now Utsusemi is a class defining spell, cause thats what people have made it to be. You take away the ability to sub Ninja for Ni, you would effectively rimshot HNMLS all over, cause incase you havent ever seen it done, pld/nin is a really useful tactic.

[Macht]

Re: Should Utsusemi: Ni be level 38 or above?

Should Barrage really be 30, and should any other job that isn't RNG main get a chance to use Sidewinder

I'm sure the BST probably don't like the idea that just about any other job with /BST has a decent change to charm what they can, only thing unique they end up with is that they can use broths.

SAMs use to get over look for the best TP builders when a DRG could do a multi-hit WS with a jump and be at or beyond 100% for a WS even worse when MNKs got Asuran Fist and the 999 Delay weapon.

Really Utsusemi:Ni at 37 means it is still almost NIN only, it's an added incentive to other jobs that reach 74. In certain spots a RNGs accuracy and damage ability with a bow can be beaten by other jobs if they equip right. Around 71 equipment wise WARs are nearly capable of matching a RNG in effectiveness even more so with gear released for them 2-3 updates ago.

[Omni]

Re: Should Utsusemi: Ni be level 38 or above?

Give ya something to try, take your war subs past 37, take 'em to 75 if you can, try a war party as war/nin where you rely on utsusemi to save your ass half of the time, attempting to juggle the mob back and forth from the other warriors, and tell us then how you wouldnt love for a faster utsu cast time / more utsusemi to fall back on.

Sure, now Utsusemi is a class defining spell, cause thats what people have made it to be. You take away the ability to sub Ninja for Ni, you would effectively rimshot HNMLS all over, cause incase you havent ever seen it done, pld/nin is a really useful tactic.

rimshot hnm? pld/nin isnt necessary last time i checked. i hardly consider that some death dealing blow to hnmls all over.
sorry pld/war, you guys lose.

[nanatsu]

Re: Should Utsusemi: Ni be level 38 or above?

The point of the matter is that all jobs have abilities and spells that can be subbed, and a lot of those abilities and spells are class defining. You can sub Provoke, which is a war only ability, not to mention Warcry. You can sub meditate. You can sub focus and dodge. you can sub SA and TA. You can sub Elemental Seal, Escape, Tractor, Sleepga, and other blm nukes. You can sub fast cast (in some cases you might get equivalent or more fast cast than a rdm can), enspells and rdm Dispel and it still works pretty damned well too. You can sub Teleports, Divine Seal, and whm's -na spells. The list goes on and on. Every job has defining abilities and spells that can be subbed. Most of them are nerfed when they are subbed, a few don't really suffer all that much. But there's no use trying to single one job out from the others. Everyone gets it in the end. If they ever raise the cap it'll be even worse. So unless you want all jobs and abilities to be modified then I'm just blah about it.

[DrivenTooFar]

Re: Should Utsusemi: Ni be level 38 or above?

All the other jobs can't get this ability until 74 anyway so to me it isn't that big of an issue. And what if they decide to raise the level cap to 80? Putting it at 38 wouldn't mean a damn thing then. I think they should just leave it how it is.

[Yossar]

Re: Should Utsusemi: Ni be level 38 or above?

Yeah, NINs don't have it nearly as bad as other jobs. Almost everything a BST is can be gained by subbing BST at 70+. The only things you don't have are Jugs and some Killer Effects (which can be gained by using certain equipment). Here's an old thread from last year: http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41981

There's more to NIN than just Utsusemi, anyway.

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: Should Utsusemi: Ni be level 38 or above?

You do realized that ni: subbed is gimped? 3 shadows instead of 4.

Did you read my post or is there something I'm missing?

Should stun be lvl 38 so it can't be subed either?

Go check what level Drks get Stun and then get back to me.

I understand what people are saying here about job abilities like Provoke and warriors are in the best position to feel slighted at the majority of their abilities being whored out but I see red mages posting here and I know for a fact if you lost the monopoly on Refresh and insta-invites you'd be foaming at the mouth. It's acceptable for other jobs to have Utsusemi: Ichi if all they're using shadows for is an emergency save in case they get hate but my question is why do they need Ni as well? People say there's more to ninja than Utsusemi but when you're exp'ing there isn't a great deal else to it if you're tanking. Yes, we have enfeebles which are also available to anyone subbing ninja and let's not even mention the elemental ninjitsu.

[Macht]

Re: Should Utsusemi: Ni be level 38 or above?

Go check what level Drks get Stun and then get back to me.

DRK get stun at 37 just like the Utsusemi: Ni so your point? BLMs which I think is the one you confused get it at 45.

Stun

[Rodin]

Re: Should Utsusemi: Ni be level 38 or above?

DRKs get stun at 37, BLMs get it at 45.


No, Ni should not be gimped. It was said before.....many other jobs have abilities that you can get by subbing. So for the last two levels a WAR can blink tank....big deal, from 37 -> 73 you guys rule the blink tanking market. No big deal in my opinion.

[nanatsu]

Re: Should Utsusemi: Ni be level 38 or above?

I am a rdm and if they raised the level cap and everyone could sub refresh I would not care. You know why? Cause everyone has it just as bad in the exact. same. way. Everyone's abilities are whored out, just not all of their abilities. Nin's are not out of a tanking job because Utsusemi Ni can be obtained by other jobs at 74. Anf if there were more refreshers around at such a high level it would only benefit everyone. Getting quick invites because of my refresh spell for 74 levels is a pretty good deal and if I complain when other people get refresh at level *74* well then I'm just being spoiled now aren't I? Not saying that ninjas are spoiled, but you saying I'd be foaming at the mouth because people are now suddenly able to have better party flexibility from more jobs having more refresh at such a high level where it hardly affects my leveling up status is just eh.

[Lmnop]

Re: Should Utsusemi: Ni be level 38 or above?

sure, there are a lot of situations where war/nin can tank as well as a nin @75... but there are so many MORE situations where a nin can tank that a war/nin could not (Charybdis comes to mind, and it seems wars need bard and other mage support a lot more than nins on anything big). Aside from that, DD nin is outstanding. With the facts that nin is still a more widely accepted tank, and that if they're not tank, they're better DD than a pld -- as in can turn into one of the top DDs in the game; no, I don't think :Ni should be raised to 38.

I do think raise should be lowered to 36 or 37 for rdm. 75 smn/rdm doesn't have raise? that's just retarded.

Moreover, it seems there're so many things that people say pld can't tank and so much stuff pld can't do as well as being inferior to nin in exp... hmm...
What were we complaining about again?

[SAVAGE]

Re: Should Utsusemi: Ni be level 38 or above?

As the warrior stated earlier, try lvl war to 74 without NI and be a tank, doesnt work. U try lvl a thief after lvl 60 when SAM DRK MNK WAR eve DRG/THF all get taken over you for exp since there sata ws can do more than a thiefs.