So. How harsh does the enmity change seem?

[kisada]

Re: So. How harsh does the enmity change seem?

umm

tanked jorm on saturday along-side a pld/nin. we didn't really have any hate problems, and though we did take a flail it was because too much damage from aoes/blizzaga and tanks losing hate through damage, nothing else. also, our whms were using very little -enmity gear (one had 0 at the least, one had -8 at the most), and they only got hate when we died.

the enmity loss seems to be very subtle over a prolonged fight, but you can notice it here and there. it seems as if casting enfeebles and utsusemi itself produce more hate than previously before, and i know this thought has been echoed by other nins.

it may be possible that there is a stronger hate loss than i noticed, since we were getting constant trick attacks, but in no way is ninja ruined, for either exp or big time hnm.

i'm beginning to think that the "nerf" was only meant to provide nin-subbers an out for hate, once they pulled it. to nin mains, i think that all the other things they do override the hate loss, or the other ninjutsus have increased hate gain to adjust for the utsusemi difference.

[Sanji]

Re: So. How harsh does the enmity change seem?

I guess it affects low level Ninjas more. I'm level 46 and some times I have trouble holding hate unless I party with a thief. I spam debuffs and elemental ninjutsu for every battle but it's not enough.. Maybe this is due to the lack of +enmity items available to nins at this level (only Mermaid ring and Nemesis earring at my level I think?).

Hopefully this will change in later levels >_<

[Rai|Kye]

Re: So. How harsh does the enmity change seem?

I guess it affects low level Ninjas more. I'm level 46 and some times I have trouble holding hate unless I party with a thief. I spam debuffs and elemental ninjutsu for every battle but it's not enough.. Maybe this is due to the lack of +enmity items available to nins at this level (only Mermaid ring and Nemesis earring at my level I think?).

Hopefully this will change in later levels >_<

you might try out Dorado sushi which gives you Enmity+ dex+ and accuracy+
i use it myself, its really good and increases dmg of SM WS blade:CHi for example

holding hate becomes really a pain when you have 1 or 2 mnks in pt, they hitting and hitting and building up far more hate then 1 swings with the double dmg they do with 3 hits

[mrmong]

Re: So. How harsh does the enmity change seem?

so what i noticed is that Ninja 40-60 are screwed but the 65+ ninja with all the enmity+ gear can still do the job.

for my mule which is 56nin i bought 2x +3 enmity errings and a o-kote cuz i wasnt able to hold hate at all. With the gear its possible but still hard, going trough the wheel 5x a battle isnt fun and costs alot.

at level 75 with my main i dont notice any difference.
the only way i loose hate often is a uber equiped mnk and some mass dmg Scs,
with THF its cake

i notice this 40-60 thing rai was talking about to be true, post patch pting at valley of sorrows or gustav (Lv55-60), i noticed hate flying EVERYWHERE, i couldnt keep hate at all without thf.

Post 60 my hate is solid. i think its because the /war attack bonus. each swing is significatly stronger without that ability. of course a thf in pt or someone with /thf helps greatly. I was in a pt yesterday blm blm rdm war/nin mnk/war nin. and i held hate fine til SC time, then i would occasionally lose hate to a MB or war, but it was soon fixed with a voke so no big deal.

[Anonymous]

Re: So. How harsh does the enmity change seem?

You will only notice this change at lower levels. The levels where Provoke is the only thing you can really use to hold hate. Moments later the mob will be running to your Black mage. But at the later levels, 60+ you'll not even notice the difference. Not even alittle bit. Unless you're one of those Ninja that only use Utsusemi...

[Rai|Kye]

Re: So. How harsh does the enmity change seem?

well the real problem is that your hate continously (sp?) decreases while other keep adding.
even with enmity +10 and Nin-tools you will loose hate to mass-DDs from time to time which is different to before. at 70+ you wont have any problems.

the most critical levels are 40-55+ atm.

[crono]

Re: So. How harsh does the enmity change seem?

well the real problem is that your hate continously (sp?) decreases while other keep adding

welcome to paladin

[Rai|Kye]

Re: So. How harsh does the enmity change seem?

well the real problem is that your hate continously (sp?) decreases while other keep adding

welcome to paladin

sorry i dont understand ><

[lionx]

Re: So. How harsh does the enmity change seem?

I think what he means is that since every hit on a tank WAR or PLD, they lose hate, that this Utsusemi change makes you and PLD on equal ground when it comes to getting hit. Enimity wise of course.

[Rai|Kye]

Re: So. How harsh does the enmity change seem?

well the enmity loss by getting hit is less then when you blink a atk.

[fuz]

Re: So. How harsh does the enmity change seem?

I haven't noticed the nerf until recently when I PT-ed with an absolute crap nin. You know, the kind that use utsusemi only, and maybe a blind or paralyze once every fight if they remeber.

Couldn't hold hate off any of the melee DDs, even a drg. But I digress, she was even bad at keeping utsusemi up--whm was spamming more heals than a pld needs. But something is wrong when as a rdm, I pull hate with enfeebs. That's just not right.

This never happened before; even bad nins were ok tanks pre-update, but now, those that are cheap or unskilled are an extreme penalty to a PT.

[Zempten]

Re: So. How harsh does the enmity change seem?

I don't believe there is any problems with the lose of emity thru Utsusemi.

I've been PTing with NIN/WAR and 2 WAR/NINs (may be off topic but SMNs REALLY can help PTs like this work alot smother with Earthen Ward) and they have all held hate just fight thru the entire fight as long as they are paying full attention. During this time I have been playing as THF, so I made sure that my SATA or SATA VB (closing SC)always landed on the mobs at the beginning of the fight asap. This to me acts like a way of securing hate for the remainder of the fight, usually if the fight lasts longer then that then something is very wrong.

I agree with the other poster though. I believe what is hurting NIN the most now is that Goblin Rush and Jet Stream takes 3 shadows now instead of one. I have yet to find out what else takes 3 shadows, but considering how we leveled off Goblins alot and Bats for a bit it hurts these tanks.

[Rai|Kye]

Re: So. How harsh does the enmity change seem?

well you are thf so that changes alot.
if you are in a party without thf, holding hate "can" become an isue if:
ppl do SC
Mages nuke at the beginning
ranger in PT
war wearring his AF

some of the points stole hate from ninja before update too but now these things happen alot more often.

@63 with Arhats gear live becomes alot easier for nin.
@75 i have like 25+ enmity macroed in for provoke

but all the level before enmity+ are very painfull without thf.

[Zempten]

Re: So. How harsh does the enmity change seem?

Well, what I'm trying to say here is that the emity changes is not harsh, at least in the exping level because there are ways for players to counter it, as in using a THF or another job that can sub THF for a SATA or SATA + WS (closing SC) to secure hate.

Also, doesn't Durendo Sushi (excuse my spelling, I never used it but heard of it) give +enmity? Plus, they have that sash now that gives +enmity at all levels ^^ I don't think it's too bad for the NIN/WARs acting as tanks , at least for exping. No comment on HNMs and the like.

[Rai|Kye]

Re: So. How harsh does the enmity change seem?

Dorado Sushi gives +3 enmity and is the only food you should be using before 63 (arhats) no mater how much enmity+ you have, you cant have enaugh

i love to have a THF in PT when i level my mule (56 ninja).
the enmity change improved the THF exp PT invite rate alot ! (atleast on my server)