Dual Wield I haste?

[Rai]

I have seen several threads at this forum noting DW1 giving 10% delay reduction, is this true?

http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/sho...el+Wield+haste

http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/sho...t=Duel+Wield+I

A sticky thread at another forum states DW1 as giving no haste. Everyone there seems to be taking that as gospel.

I would like to know the truth, I know there is a JP expert's guide that gives this sort of info.

[Omni]

the second thread has it down right, the forumla atleast. his wording can be a little misleading. i guess the dual wield muliplier can be considered 'haste'

if you have two weapons with a delay of 227... ur delay should be 454 but if u use dual wield II it would be 363. so i guess it can be considered a haste... but this 'haste' only applies when you are using 2 weapons and only applies to attacks.

haste (spell) affects more than just atk speed, it affects recast timers as well.

[Rai]

I am asking about Dual Wield 1. I know Dual Wield 2 is 15% or *.85.

The question is does Dual Wield 1 give 10% or *.90?

[Navia]

The ninja dual wield trait is considered by many to be 'delay reduction' on melee weapons.
If it was really haste in the normal sense, our ninjitsu recast timers would get lower as we leveled up, but they dont.
Haste from spells or items cuts ninjitsu recast time down in addition to melee speed which confuses things.

DualWield I = .10 (level 10)
DualWield II = .15 (level 25)
DualWield III = .25 (level 45)
DualWield IV = .35 (level 65)

AF body = .01
AF2 Legs = .05
Supponomimi Earring= .05
Sarashi = .01 (only works if subbing ninja and level 30+)

Add the value from the highest DualWield trait you have in addition to the other items listed, then add 1.0 - this is your delay modifier.
Add the delay of your two weapons together and divide it by the delay modifier. This should give you the delay between each round of attacks.

Note: Each weapon delay when modified by this calculation is rumored to have a floor value of 150delay when hasted.
It may seem like you attack faster than that, but its your double attack trait from /war firing off most likely, causing you to swing nonstop. (every .75 seconds if you get a run of double attacks)

To use myself as reference, level 71 ninja
Sairen(238 delay) + Hototogisu(185 delay) = 423

No special gear, just Dual Wield IV gives me a 1.35 modifier.
423/1.35 = 313.3 = 3.133 seconds between attack rounds

If haste gear is applied in the same fashion as the modifiers in the above table for someone at level 75:
Dual Wield IV = .35
Panzer Mask = .02
Fuma Sune-ate = .03
Byakko legs = .05
AF body = .01
Supponomimi Earring= .05
Modifier = 1.51

423/1.51 = 2.8 seconds between attack rounds.
Piling on the haste equipment cuts .3 seconds off the wait between attack rounds - not bad. Thats adds up to nearly 2 more attack rounds per minute.
If double attack fired off on those extra melee rounds for each hand both times I could get up to an additional 40%tp per minute : with some luck of course

The original weapon setup drops to a low enough level that its very apparent a speed cap of some sort must come into play.
This is why I think most highlevel katanas dont get really low delays any longer(sub 200 delay), when you hit 75 and pile on haste and dual wield enhancers, just about anything you equip is going to be fast.
Multiplying by a fractional haste modifier (*.45 instead of /1.55) gives 423*.49 = 207.27 = 2.1 seconds between each combat round which seems way too fast. That would mean a quad attack round (double attack from /war activates twice) would mean 1 katana swing per .52 seconds.

Edit: updated info, fixed some errors in my calculations.

[Omni]

oi? DW at 75? neato...?

i believe DW III to IV is only a .05 reduction.

[Navia]

I am pretty certain III to IV is a .1 jump - There was a noticable difference in my attack/cast ninjitsu/attack rhythm when i made 65.

[Omni]

hmm. ive always assumed it was .05 for each other than II->III being the most noticeable.

i was wearing nin af for 65 to see the difference and it -is- noticeable but i always assumed that was cuz of my nin af adding an extra .05. that and using my newly found hototogisu.

/shrug, not like its important or anything. >< time to go bash maats face in.

[Navia]

Good luck on maat, don't worry about how much damage you are doing to him,
its all about not getting caught with shadows down when you hear 'I'll teach you to respect your elders' and he tries to ws your butt

[Rai]

DualWieldI 10% = .90
DualWield II 15% = .85
DualWield III 25% = .75
DualWield IV 35% = .65 or .70?

Weapon 1 Delay + Weapon 2 Delay = Pre- Delay total * DWx = reduced Delay total

Ok, my NIN is lvl 21 and my 2 weapons are:

Mokuto+1 lvl 16 damage 12 delay 227
Suzume lvl 19 damage 11 delay 190


227 + 190 = 417 * .90 = 375.3
*Note 60 delay = 1 sec
FFXI is based on 60 fps internal clock!

if DW1 gives a 10% delay reduction it would be 3600 / 375.3 = 9.59 attacks per minute

if DW1 give NO reduction in delay it would be 3600 / 417 = 8.633 attacks attacks per minute


Ok I'll test this out on crabs in the dunes and count swings.

[Rai]

I was looking at your post and I just don't get your numbers.

No special gear, just Dual Wield IV gives me a 1.35 modifier.
423/1.35 = 313.3 = 3.133 seconds

you some how are coming up with 74% or a 26% modifier and it would be 3600/ 313 = 11.49 attacks per minute or 5.22 sec delay


Dual Wield IV gives what % reduction? 35%?

well, Sairen(238 delay) + Hototogisu(185 delay) = 423

then it should be:

423 * .65 = 274.95

or you could do it

423 * .35 = 148.05 then 423 - 148.05 = 274.95

274.95 is 65% of 423 if we are subtracting 35% off our base delay we are left with 65% of that base delay.

and then 274.95 / 60 = 4.5825 secs now 60 / 4.5825 = 13.0932 attacks per minute

or

3600 frames per minute / 274.95 = 13.0932 attacks per minute

[ZQM]

Originally posted by Navia
DualWield V = .45 (level 75)
AF body = .05
Sarashi = .10 (only works if subbing ninja and level 30+)
Byakko legs = .15

AF Body and Sarashi have been tested to only give 1% haste, Byakko's Haidate are only 5% haste, and I've never heard of Dual Wield V (Nor do I notice a difference between a 75 NIN and a 70 NIN's attack rate, both fighting the same mob)

[Rai]

the second thread has it down right, the forumla atleast.

The second link has it wrong in the way he is calculating the %s

look at the way Apple Pie does it in this link: http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/sho...i&pagenumber=2

Expected Delay: (191 + 150) x 0.85 (DW2) = 289.85
Chance to attack for 1 minute: 3,600 / 289.85 = 12.42... = 12

there is a huge difference in x 0.85 and x 1.15!

I am going with Apple Pies method of x 0.85 for Dual wield 2 and not x 1.15

[Niland]

as far as i'm aware ninja job-traits are:

Lv5: Stealth
Lv10: Resist Bind I
Lv10: Dual Wield I
Lv15: Subtle Blow I
Lv25: Dual Wield II
Lv30: Resist Bind II
Lv30: Subtle Blow II
Lv45: Dual Wield III
Lv45: Subtle Blow III
Lv50: Resist Bind III
Lv60: Subtle Blow IV
Lv65: Dual Wield IV
Lv70: Resist Bind IV
Lv75: Subtle Blow V

its not something i researched particularily hard, so i'm not claiming this as gospel.... but it fits with my experience.

i didn't notice any DW increase post 65, but for example the last 'subtle blow' bonus was noticable when soloing.

[Omni]

yea, the dw modifer is .85 not 1.15, sorry i got them confused.

i always thought 100 delay = 1 second?

[Bronx]

I got a question about that Sarashi. I'm a THF/NIN with a Hornetneedle(Delay:150) and Calevely Dagger(Delay:183).
Currently i have both Duel Wield I and II.

So right now my dely is reduced 15% right? With the sarashi my delay is gonna be reduced to 25% right?

I bougtht the Sarashi about a week ago and started to think that i spent 250k for nohting. I really cant see my speed increase visually. Am i just imagining that im the same speed or is it really working but i'm just not seeing it.

Also, is the Sarashi worth it? I mean, Hornetsneedle+Calveley Dagger+ Sarashi+ Haste? Thats some speed there. If i got me a Bravo Sublinger and my Ranperre Harness, ill be a super TP machine.