Ethical question: SHOULD San Ninjutsu be put in...?

[Karinya]

Originally posted by Melkor
Best way to fix Utsusemi is to make it unreliable? No thanks.

Well, like I said, NIN is borderline broken already (some people would remove the "borderline"...), so you can't really give them anything new without taking away something else. And the ability to tank as well as, if not better than, PLD *while* being a decent DD and having some useful enfeebles should certainly raise a red flag for anyone taking a serious look at inter-job balance. Look at the other thread on NIN going on right now - pretty much everyone agrees that NIN don't give up anything to tank. Compare that with PLD's crappy offense, or WAR having to choose between DD and tank setups, can you say that it's fair?

Already in some NM battles pretty much everyone that isn't NIN is /NIN, utsusemi is just that good even if you have little or no Ninjutsu skill (note my suggestions are Ninjutsu skill dependent, I think /NIN utsusemi should be hit harder but all utsusemi is still too good relative to how other jobs can take damage, especially for a job that has other good abilities). Ballista too.

I realize this would be a radical change to NIN. But I also think that's necessary and would improve the game. PLDs are only invited because there aren't enough NINs to go around - and WARs are only invited because there aren't enough NINs *or* PLDs.

[Cade]

Ok, Karinya does not want a San line introduced, and he/she feels Ninja needs to be nerfed big time.

Back on topic.

I'd like to see an Light and Dark elemental ninjitsu...

Thats about the only thing I can think of that they could add without freakishly overpowering Ninja like many already claim it is. Sure Jubaku Ni would be great, and so would some San stuff, but I honestly think that would be tipping the scale to much in our favor.

We don't even have San line and people complain that we're already too good.

[Kiyosuki]

You know when I first started playing this game, and aimed for Ninja..

I joked that the reason Ninja's arn't one hit kill death machines (to those who thought it should be, which I still don't agree with) is because they're all holding back. They just give a taste of they're potential power to the party, in true "mysterious and dangerous guy/girl character" fashion. They're going "easy" on the enemy.


I didn't realize it was kind of true....

Seeing the way things are, San may really never be implemented. Damn...us Ninja's, we can't flip out and kill people to our best ability because it'd "unbalance" the game. lol

It reflects the same dillemna that Red Mages seem to face, in how many believe Red Mages are freakishly overpowered mages because of mostly spells they get in the 40's, as well as decent physical stats for soloing. But many Red Mages complain and wish they could get new spells in the later levels, but are often rebuted with claims that Red Mage is already too good.

I always thought Ninja and Red Mage were parallel jobs in they're respective fields, Ninja for melee's, and Red Mage for the Wizards. They're both the "variety" classes of each side, so it seems obvious that they'd be killer soloers as well as good in the exp pt field due usually to one or two functions.

The variety guys always kick a fair amount of ass.

Man I really wish that list that said every single job got some fantastic new ability to keep balance among the jobs, while giving something, was true...

I don't see the hurt in putting in completely new spells for Ninja's or Red Mages to use at later levels though. Just don't make a Refresh II (No I can do better, Refresh-Ga. lol), or a San line, but just start new things in general.

3 spells for Ninja's would probably do just fine. (If I had to choose out of that list I made, I'd choose the flee/-emnity one, the evasion down/bind one, and the elemental light and darkness attacks. If the current list stays the way it is with the Jubaku and Dokumori Ni still not being released, if these spells were introduced 60 and on I don't honestly see the harm they'd do.)
I'd put in Tonko San that gives invis/sneak at least though.

[Kirk]

Burzum has the right idea here.

Its not about if Utsusemi: San should be added and will it unbalance things. The point is that ninja's have already been religated to obselecense not due to the Utsusemi nerf but by the level 75 cap increase.

Its all about the end game really. Level 1-75 is just training. Level 75 is the level your character is supposed to be the most powerful. For most classes this is true. But for ninja level 74 is the level you get fired. Its kinda like the employee who worked so hard and sacrificed so much for the company only to be fired the day before his retirement with no benefits at all. In reality it truly does suck.

You really need to be in a HNM LS to understand this. Its nothing worse than being a tank all your life and then suddenly being second or third best tank because everone and their momma who subs NIN can do exactly what u do only better.

Just ask Madden how he feels trying to tank next to Rudo (war/nin), Fira (thf/nin) or Gauge (drk/nin /w kraken club!! this guy goes insane on mobs) or any of the Paladins in our LS!. Its like impossible! They draw all the hate and are able to blink tank just as good as you.

It kind of makes you wonder... what the heck does it mean to level ninja to 75 anyway?

So thus from an end game perspective, ninja's really _need_ utsusemi:san to be somewhat useful.

Of course there is an easier way to fix everything without unbalancing things terribly.

Raise Utsusemi: Ni to level 38

Its not about making ninja's overpowered. Its just about giving them their dignity back at level 75.

:dead:

[Kess]

Kirk is right on the money with this one.Leveling ninja past 37
seems pointless and the cost is astronomical sometimes I really
wonder how some are making the gill to afford such a class.I
believe and im sure that im not alone that for a class thats spends
so much gill just to be able to tank should at the endgame become the most powerful tankers.<what! you say that SE didnt
intend ninja to tank> Then what else can they be at level 75 oh yea the class that uses cool weak katanas to sit in jueno all day long in awe of how sexy they look in AF.

San needs to be implemented.If not they need to NERF the cost of leveling ninja.

[Niland]

*shrug*

i think ninja is fine^^ i'm not crying because a PLD tanks better in sky

overall no job put a grin on my face the way ninja did when you got haste, that dual wield bonus kicking in, and staring face to face with a mob

its just a fun job to play, and in a game i think thats the most important thing^^

[Kirk]

Ni,

I agree totally. Ninja is a very fun and great job. In fact its the only one I'll probably ever play, which is why it is kinda a bummer when you are not as useful for most of the stuff you will be doing at lvl 75. i.e. HNM, SKY.

But still there is fun stuff to do with nin at 75. I mean there truly is nothing stopping you from trying to tank sky gods either I suppose. But the point was everone who subs ninja at 74 becomes as good as a lvl 75 ninja, in term of blinking. San would be the thing thats seperated a main ninja from a sub.

[Navia]

If utsusemi:san was a 1 shadow instant cast, almost like a samurai's 3rd eye would be nice, especially if you could cast utsusmi:ichi over it instead of the current Ni>cancel ichi around50% routine so ichi can take hold :sweat:
Ninja are a blast to play the way they are - but I am not 74+ yet to see first hand how others can basically take over our role by subbing nin on HNM and tell us to just take screenshots or something lol
Spending 2hrs waiting to claim a NM so I can maybe get a 300k cut of the drops if we don't get screwed on the loot or tank a few rounds as a SATA b**** because i'm not high enough level yet isn't why I played a ninja anyways.
Solo or helping friends with quests is alot more rewarding for me.

[Demetrios]

NIN/WAR is a fine job and does not need any changes in my opinion except for the addition of Jubaku: Ni and Dokumori: Ni. We are better than /NINs in the fact that we have 1 more Ni shadow than they do, and our base evasion skill allows us to dodge harder monsters which a WAR could not. Moreover, you do not dodge much anyway unless you cast Kurayami: Ni, another spell which only NIN mains are able to use. Wars and Thfs must use blind bolts, which are nearly impossible to stick on a VT monster at 75.

For those who believe that NIN is not useful in sky, I could not disagree more. With +22 enmity in gear and merit points, I am able to virtually solo kite Kirin without dieing for the entire fight. Yes, rangers will pull hate from time to time, but for the majority of the time Kirin is on me. Enmity gear is very powerful if you stack it, however, this means NINs must drop their Osode/Harness fetishes and wear the ugly Lv64 purple armor. Moreover, NIN is able to tank all POP item NMs more effectively than a PLD at all except Faust, and Despot. Sure we suck on Byakko and Seiryu compared to PLDs with Aerial Armor, but they have to tank some things too .

[Kirk]

Demetrios:

Could you give some kiting tips? I tried it the other day with the byakko drop nm but I could hardly keep hate. Is there a method to this or is it just run around and voke?

[Mitsu]

Career nin here and leader of a HNM ls on rag.
Id rather have PLD tank anything in Tulia for the simple fact that pld offer safety in "OMFG" situations. Kiting kirin is mindnumbingly easy. NIN at 75 gain the versatility that war have thier whole lvling career. NIN/BLM NIN/RNG, bith combos offer steady accurate damage in any situation and both are considerably harder to pull off than nin/war. If I could have one ability for nin at this time it would be throw ws, BUT with my relic WS in reach I may not want it anymore. Rumor has it that Blade:Metsu has same damage modifier as sidewinder (keke ^^). I always want a complete ninjutsu line for ninja but until I obtain whats in the game I will reserve judgement

[Demetrios]

Demetrios:

Could you give some kiting tips? I tried it the other day with the byakko drop nm but I could hardly keep hate. Is there a method to this or is it just run around and voke?

I have never kited Byakko (or Seiryu) on NIN, so I cannot give you any specific first hand information. From what I've heard is that you can tank Byakko straight up with two NINs that have very high HP. Use Earth Staffs, Jelly Rings, Arhat's Gi, Fish Kabobs, etc. Get two bards in your party, one of them singing dual evasion songs, one singing dual haste songs, and then a whm or rdm to haste.

This advice is assuming you can stick graivty consistently on Byakko (never tried.):
Generally, it is best to start out with 300% Spirits Within and at 18:00 game time (Ninja Kyahan) then make it known to your LS that you will need 3 or so provokes in to settle hate onto yourself. Beyond that it is simply staying out of range and then calling Shadowbinds or Binds whenever you feel that you're in danger of death (Ni shadows down, too many Ga spells went off and you have only Ichi ready to recast, etc.)


Edit:

Realized you ment Uli, LOL. Well, just don't get hit with the Heavy Strike TP move (it resets all hate) and just provoke every 30 seconds. It'd be best to use all enmity gear that you have on this NM. Just run it around the teleporter room that is in the northern part of the EXP zone.

[Kiaza]

I don't think NIN's need any more powerful enfeebles as it is. If they did recieve the SAN then that would completely erase a RDM's resume' to simply being a Refresh/Dispel whore.
I'm not quite sure who said it, but I too do believe NIN came out to be a lot more powerful then what SE originally intended, thus the lack of the SAN series to begin with.

[fyrewyre]

Kiyosuki:
Why is Jubaku and Dokumori Ni unnatainable in the first place? Is there some kind of balance issue or maybe something I'm not thinking of?


I think that would cause a 'tactical' issue where blm and rdm are used to being good or known for those type of DOT DMG and making NIN some sorta super enfeebler might cause a problem where people thing NIN is an enfeebler rather than tank. Giving mnk an evasion boost is strange.. giving sam One-hit-free move is also strange imo, why not give them to nin? or share similar abilities?

One thing i hate is how movies portray ninja as one hit killers when the truth is that there is no ONE generalization, they did many things buy were bought up train to protect and escape while assasination and various duties were part of their training. I also think SE set up nin so that the work the same way as ninja back then used to work.

An increase in shurken accuracy would be great as well as an critical up rate ability at lv50 and maybe removing the 'ichi' out of dokomori and jabuku and setting them at the regular Ni speed would fix this 'missing ninjutsu' problem and shinobi tabi means 'ninja socks' unless i misread, i'm also up for the idea to make tonko:ich invis and tonko:ni sneak lol and yeah a bind spell would be great.

How about 'mirror'? An ability that reflects the next attack at the enemy with a 5min timer while taking damage for that attack. For rdm 'reflect' which returns all single target spells like flood for example.

[Ziguld]

Could make Elem-san line be straight up damage.

Leave Ni line as debuff, make San insta cast high damage (200ish) and give it a 3 minute cooldown so even if you where willing to go Ni -> San (proper orders to debuff elem before nuke) you would only be doing around 600 extra damage a minute... at the cost of 2 of each powder (12 total).

Would it make ninja more powerful? yup... but considering you would burn about 200 or so extra powder over an hour and have to take up at least 6 inventory slots extra, it wouldn't be something that anyone would just strut around doing all the time. Use it while solo'n serket? Sure. Use it for exp? Doubtful.

Oh and before Nin gets a light based Ninjutsu, can we upgrade Holy ffs.