NIN/BLM (A must read)

[Midou]

he's on our server tidane.. i ran by him today in port. i was going to stop and check his gears but was in a hurry to catch up to my ls since i was holding them up.

imo theres a big problem with this setup.. think for just one second how much gil per level you're going to basically toss. dunno about prices on other servers but on fairy you'd average ~200-250 per cast.. we'll say you'd spin the wheel twice per fight on top of keeping utsu up.. ~1.5-2k per kill? you've gotta be shitting me thats not even worth considering. yeah it'd be pretty badass to see in action or actually do but in exp its just not realistic for the vast majority of the ppl playing nin. could be another possibility for hnm's or god's to be more effective.. but even all of the people who are doing nin as 2nd/3rd jobs and could afford to do this.. who really wants to? i'd rather keep saving for a speed belt than to toss my gil away to get chain5's in a more unique way.

[sudo]

ya that's damn stinking insane.

But have you seen some of the ppl around and how much gil they have?

I knew ppl who had 140 million gil that they just gave out cause they had so much stinking money. Maybe the dude had 3 other computers fish botting for him and money basically means nothing.

Considering that he already had everything there was to have like HQ everything and speed belt+1 etc, I'm sure he's just enjoying himself.

We all agree it's not practical but what's gil after all? Can't really pay rent with it or buy food with it :/
(unless you be selling it enmass to IGN)

I say more power to the man. Great idea. Wish I had the money to burn like that.

Are the spells that expensive to cast? I thought the NI spells took the same powders as the Ichi spells. Those are only at most 6000/99 ~ which is around only 60-100 gil per cast. How bad is fairy's economy anyway?

To bigbird:

oh come on, you're a bst, it's easy to farm that earring back again You don't even get agro there anymore:spin: Just take a torma and farm till he pops XD

[Midou]

i dont recall off hand but some stacks of powders for the elemental nin spells are 15-19k on fairy. don't quote my prices it was just an off-hand figure that took me about 5 secs to figure out.. could very easily be wrong.. sometime in the next couple of days i'll check it out and repost the actual prices.

[Bigbird]

Hey guys i posted this on alakazam forums and wanted to share what i found with people here too, unfortunatly i do not have any screenshots. :-(

OK, so after my Ls's usual round of HNMS i needed to go to bastok but i was in raboa so i decided to sub BLM , go to korolocka , and escape, to get to bastok quicker. I was carrying my wind staff at the time and my BLM sub is 31, i was also carrying my AF1 Headpiece (ninjutsu skill +5)

This is what i tested(with blm sub 31)

Before zoning into korolocka i saw a spider.

With NO staff, and NO AF head piece
Huton:NI did 151 damage

With AF1 headpiece
Huton:Ni did 151 Damage

With Wind Staff and NO AF1 headpiece
Huton:Ni did 166 damage (increase of 10%)

With Wind staff and AF1 Headpiece
Huton:NI did 166 damage

OK, so i verified that Windstaff increased the Damage and i was surprised that Ninjutsu skill did NOT increase the damage!!!!

My next round of tests was with War subjob in the area where Simurge spawns. We were waiting for sim to pop and my Friend BLm was there with me so i asked to borrow some of his INT and elemental Magic Gear. This was tests mainly on crabs and leeches, i wont post exact numbers cause i forgot the exact numbers but i remember clearly the different effects of the equipment because i tested it alot for about an hour.

My friend Loaned me his +4 int rings, a +1 int Earing and Morion tathalum and also his elemental torque.

Results:
Without any INT gear i did my usual damage output, alot less then when i had BLM sub, but pretty high, considering those crabs and leeches are pretty low lvl for me. When i equiped INT gear, Damage output went up, but not alot, as a matter of fact, for each piece of INT gear, my damage only went up by one point.

With war sub, and all pieces of INT, and wind staff and NO elemental torque:

Huton:Ni did 141 Damage

I unequiped an earing which gave me +1 INT and estimated it would do 140 damage.

Huton:Ni did 140 damage

I then equiped the elemental Torque (gives +7 elemental magic skil)

Huton:NI did 140 damage

I then asked the BLM to cast Burn (lower mobs INT)
Huton:NI did about 156ish Damage

I asked the BLM to cast shock(lower MND)While it was already burned.
Huton:NI did 156ish damage

I tested this for a few hours over and over.
----------------------------------------
OK, in conclusion what does this All mean, what did i learn from all of this.

INT DOES effect Ninjutsu Damage, more int = more damage. The exact Ratio i am not certain of, as far as my tests, each point of INT increased my damage by only 1 point. Maybe its a percentage thats too low to see.

MND does not effect Ninjutsu damage. (not that anyone is claiming this)

Elemental skill does not effect Ninjutsu Damage(again, no one is claiming this)

Ninjutsu skill does NOT effect Ninjutsu damage. I was very surprised with this, i always thought it increased the damage, but instead it just decreases resistance to Ninja Debuffs.

Mag ATK increases Ninjutsu Damage(by a heck of alot). This is the most important factor in the numbers that NIN/BLM can put up. BLm sub gives you both of these bonuses at lvl 30 sub(60 main ninja) I had thrown out my Moldavite earing(how the heck was i supposed to think i'd need it to test on my Ninja!!!!) so i couldnt see what numbers 5 mag ATK would bring me up to.

Elemental Staffs Increase the damage of Ninjutsu by 10%(just like it does to regular Blackmagic). I am also pretty sure about them helping with Resistance but the mobs i was testing VS were low so its hard to determine based on the limited tests i did.

The mobs INT effects the damage of Ninjutsu(and probably resistance too!!) When the BLm used Burn on the mob(lower its INT), ninjutsu damage increased everytime, however when we used shock(mnd down) there was no change. Blackmagic also follows these rules, the BLM did more dmg when we lowerd the mobs INT as well.

(edit)
One thing i forgot to add, when i used Elemental Debuffs, like Huton decreases the mobs ICe resistance, this did NOT increase the damage of my friends Blackmage spells. Seems to only increase the chance of ICE type spells hitting for maximum damage.

OK guys sorry for this long post and no screenshots, but i really dont have any reason to lie, i was just curious like you guys all are and i had a chance to test some of it out for myself. I only tested Huton:Ni because i have a windstaff. If you have any questions just post them and ill try to answer if i remember lol.

[imac2much]

How much do HQ staves affect spells by? If regular staves increase the corresponding elemental spell by 10%, does HQ increase it by 15%?

Also, I wonder how expensive this is compared to shuriken spamming, and which one would actually be more damaging with capped throwing skill?

[ZQM]

Originally posted by imac2much
How much do HQ staves affect spells by? If regular staves increase the corresponding elemental spell by 10%, does HQ increase it by 15%?

Yes, 15%.

Thank you very much for the testing Bigbird.

So, from your testing, one could come to the conclusion that the enfeebles (Jubaku, Hojo, and Kuriyama) are also effected by INT. As seen from:

BlackMagic:
Thunder's damage is effected by INT
Blind is effected by INT

White Magic:
Cure's potency is effected by MND
Paralyze is effected by MND

Ninjutsu:
Huton's damage is effected by INT
Kuriyama is effected by INT?

Would be nice to finally know, I've never seen any info on what stat it's based on but have seen it asked time and time again.

[Bigbird]

HQ staves increase it by 15% which would only translate to about 8 more damage points from the regular staves (not worth it imo XD)

Shuriken spamming cant touch this in terms of damage, especially if you have haste gear and a whm to haste you.

But what i really need to test is how much Damage will i be doing to things like HNMs, Gods, and Golems in Sky. So far this guy has been doing good damage vs Crabs, but i wanna know if this is the same output i can expect vs the big boys. Hopefully today theres some NINS to take over tanking and i can bring my BLM sub

[Bigbird]

ZQM thats a good question, Hojo, Kurayami, dokumiri and Jubako are a bit different and harder to test then the elemental Debuffs because they dont do any damage, so the question is what factors determine Resistance. This is a hard question, but there are some things I believe i can make an educated guess on from my experience and tests.

Ninjutsu skill:
I believe that this is the most important factor in terms of a mob resisting our debuffs. This is a logical conclusion that is reinforced by the fact that ninjutsu skill doesnt increase the dmg that elemental Ninjutsu does. Therefore i believe it must effect resistance, otherwise why the hell do we have it!!! (rumor to also efffect spell interuption rate)

Int
This is really hard to say effects resistance. From my tests i could definetly see INT increasing damage, but that doesnt necesarily mean it is a factor with resistance. I will leave it at that, because Ninjutsu and Blackmagic follow similar rules so then instead of looking at INT for resistance we would want to look at...

MND
According to my BLM friends, using spells like shock (lower MND) increase the chance of there spells hitting for full damage. If this is true, i would suspect it would be the same for Ninjutsu, but again this is something that is very difficult to determine. The more i look at ninjutsu the more i see how closely related to Blackmagic it is this is what reminded me to look at...

Staves
We know that staves increase the chance that a blackmages spell will not be resisted. I strongly believe that Ninjutsu debuffs will follow these same rules.

So if you are really interested in making sure your debuffs stick I would (first bump my ninjutsu skill as high as possible and then) look into geting the following staves.
Kurajami : Darkness
Jubako: Water
Hojo: Earth (Bards use earth staff to land elegy/slow, see the trend, damn you Square!!!)
Dokumuri:Water

I have a dark staff, i will be using it when i fight HNMs to see whether my Kurajami sticks more often then the other Ninjas, but for now i guess this is all just assumptions, i cannot backup my theories (so ya, everyone go test for yourselves prove them wrong/right!!!)

[truong]

Wow. I thought I knew this game in and out, lol. This is definitely a legit combo if someone actually has the gil to burn. NIN/BLM would have zerp problems keeping hate.

[riceburner4540]

moldavite simply adds 5% to your magic damage output. so basically, from your findings, ninjutsu acts exactly like black magic except the resist rates are based on ninjutsu skill instead of elemental skill? that said, that elemental torque wouldn't have helped you for anything, since elemental skill is for black magic nuke resists ^_^;;.

what i'm curious about is if the elemental resist down effect of ninjutsu stacks. for example, if you do katon > suiton, would it receive both water resist down and thunder resist down or would suiton overwrite katon's elemental resist down effect? this type of nin would pair really, really well with a blm. resists probably wouldn't be much of an issue either...the only major downside would be the money cost, but last i remember, siren's powders weren't too expensive.

tsurara: 1k/stack
uchitake: 14-16k/stack
makibishi: 6k/stack
kawahori-ogi: 2-3k/stack
mizu-deppo: 3-4k/stack
hiraishin: 6k/stack

so most of them are pretty inexpensive, except for uchitake. still probably cost like 100k per level just for those alone though...

[Kiyosuki]

As expensive as this seems, it still seems to cost less than attempting to be a Shuriken whore, and a hell of a lot more effective. ><

[riceburner4540]

i'd just like to add some info

ninjutsu does seem like it follows all the rules for black magic. if this is indeed true, then the following should be true.

int will increase ninjutsu damage linearly (roughly 1:1), but will not help resist rates. i would imagine that this wouldn't be much of a problem anyway, except for the first ninjutsu used. there have been plenty of tests on the blm forums for this and its generally agreed upon that int plays a very, very small role (if any) as far as resist rates go.

although i've yet to see proof of this, it seems (and is generally agreed) that burn decreases resist rates as well as increases magic damage for black magic. mid to high 60s, resist rates on exp mobs drop way, way down for blms, so if burn lowers resist rates, it's difficult to notice; however, pre-elemental staves, it seemed like spells landed much easier with burn on.

as far as i know, shock shouldn't have any effect whatsoever on ninjutsu resist rates, except maybe for jubaku and hojo. white magic enfeebles (like slow and paralyze) hit more often when a monster has shock effect. i'm not sure what jubaku and hojo would count as...

and yeah, shurikens are way more expensive than powders...and you have to use much more of them, since they miss quite a bit as well...at least, for me anyway.

[Bigbird]

riceburner4540 :
Yup u are right, it seems ninjutsu follows every rule that Blackmaigic does, except that we depend on our Ninjutsu skill whereas they depend on elemental Skill (rdm and blm). That is the only difference i can find.

As far as the elemental debuffs stacking. Gah i knew i should have payed attention when i was in castle oztroja, but basically the way to test this is to go to Castle oztroja and fight some of the yagudo ninja there, they will use Debuffs. When u check your element status u will see a decrease, just note if u ever have multiple -elements at the same time and that will answer your question. From what i hear so far, they do not stack, i'll probably test that later today though.

And about shock effecting anything, i am not sure about this my BLM friend might have been wrong. I am not sure where the Mobs MND is involved, i doubt it helps with ninjutsu. Anyways, I figure by buffing your ninjutsu skill and using the apropriate staff, is enough to ensure they land most of the times. Heck i land slow and blind faster then some Redmages on Kirin sometimes.

[eriiko]

You could always join a ballista match and cast on each other, instead of going to the castle.

[Mitsu]

I have capped throw with MAX rang acc (90+) and +15 throw skill and I still miss some as Nin/Rng against some gods. The damage output is consistent at 100-120 per shuriken and I throw around 100-150 shuriken per fight. That compared to a mere 50k for the whole assortment of ninjutsu.....is nothing. The real cost of NIN/BLM is in equip preparations. So far I have all elemental staffs and good INT gear, all im missing is kirins osode (hope he drops it this weekend) and my 2 af2 peices from dynamis. After those items are obtained, I can safely say that my nin/blm is complete and will begin to see its true potential