Nin/Rng i know, hear me out

[Arien20]

So i was reading some posts on various forums, and i know nin/war is the only way to go, Im at lvl 60 currently. I dont see why nin/rng cant work for HNM fights, and maybe even a xp party. With a nin using a gun, doing Slug shot skillchains, debuffing.. you would be doing great damage with the proper gear. I really think this is what SE made nin for. Look at all the Rng Acc on our AF. All we'd need is a Throwing WS. Navia has posted some numbers on another post about some of the damage she does and its very nice.

Would nin/rng ever become accepted?

[Lightseeker]

I think it has the potential to be a good DD, and it could become accepted as such at some point. (I played nin/rng from 22-25, acted as puller, and did just fine, but I acknowledge that post-jungle blink-tanking is my only option.) I think -- and this is just opinion -- that part of the reason so many people are adamant about NIN/WAR is that there's just a huge shortage of tanks in this game.

Look at what you need for a balanced party:
healer -- whm, or combination of rdm, brd, smn, etc
tank -- pld, nin, war at some levels
support -- rdm, brd, smn, etc
DD -- drk, drg, sam, blm, rng, thf, mnk, war

You have some flexibility on healers, support, and DD depending on mobs and levels, but a tank is a tank, always.

On Fenrir, paladins are insanely rare, as are good tanking warriors. Last night I couldn't find a tank for ANY of the jobs/levels I wanted to work on (33 rng, 53 rdm, 42 drg). NIN/RNG may be a good DD, but for now I think most people see it as a "waste" of the job. Just my 2 gil. ^^

[Izual]

It might be a fun combo for soloing, but there isn't much practical end-game use for nin/rng. The problem is, ninja only have C in marksmanship (archery is even lower). This means at 75, you're already 44 skill points below a real ranger, not to mention their higher-level passive traits that you don't have access to. Most end-game HNM have extremely high evasion, without preludes even a well-equipped real ranger has trouble hitting. Nin/rng, even with all the +racc available to you, would really have a tough time doing any meaningful damage.

[nsxtasy]

For Nin/Rng to do great damage on HNM....throwing and $$$$.

It will cost an arm and a leg, but you just spam shurikens.

Sharpshot + prelude + rng acc from /rng. You'll be doing surprisingly good damage.

A nin/rng could work the same way for xp pts as a DD, but it would be insanely expensive to be constantly spamming shurikens. No higher level guns for ninja past 42 hurts its effectiveness w/ that post 55ish (the C skill doesn't help either).

[Arien20]

yea, im just saying.. On HNM's etc, id like to create more use for myself than just a Tank, as we have a buncha pld's. With NIN/RNG using a gun, couldnt i be doing decent damage. Providing i had Acc up gear, i still dont see why Nin/rng with the right gear couldnt work very well in a party...


Navia, you wanna chime in here?

[Navia]

I don't think it will ever become widely accepted, most people look at katana damage/delay and look at the best ninja usable gun/bullet and make up their mind it doesn't work *at all* right there. I myself was guilty of this at one point, ignorant of the ranged damage multiplier and 'punch through damage' ability of ranged weapons.

The combination works at low level (pre 37), then doesn't hold up too well from 37-57 because gun weaponskills are somewhat weak pre-slug shot in the hands of a ranger.

Job abilities/traits at for 60nin/30rng
Rng traits:
Alertness
Accuracy Bonus I (+10accuracy/ranged accuracy)
Rapid Shot
Resist Poison
Accuracy Bonus II (+13accuracy/ranged accuracy)
Accuracy bonuses are from this JP publication FFXI Book

Rng abilities:
Sharpshot
Scavenge
Camouflage
Barrage

Gear
Must haves if you want to get the most out of rng sub:

Ninja AF (gloves +20ranged attack) or federation tekko (+3acc/ranged acc),
Ninja AF Legs(+10ranged accuracy),
Ninja AF boots(+4agi) or leaping Boots (3agi),
1 or 2 archer knife(+1agi +10ranged acc each),
+1versions of ranged accuracy rings
emp hairpin (+3agi)
Nomad Mantle +1 or the federation cape to get +2agi or amemit/amemit +1 for +10-15ranged attack and some str is a tossup.
+3agi earrings
-If you can find it, the level 30 subjob rng cloak increases 'Rapid Shot activation rate'

At 60 nin/rng you can trade a 3agi earring for 3 more acc from beaters earring, +5marksmanship from gun belt and the 2nd passive accuracy trait from a 30rng sub kicks in (+13acc/rng acc).

I have read some posts from another ninja that has logged damage playing nin/rng. He is almost 70 now, gun damage against stuff like darters can hold its own alongside other damage jobs.

'Rng sub can do respectable melee damage with gear swaps while building tp for weaponskill/barrage'
Some have argued a barrage every 5 minutes for up to 800 damage on xp monster and the large +accuracy bonus trait on melee/ranged attacks from subbing ranger is competetive with a warrior sub.

Double attack and berserk from /war is good,
A nin/rng can swap all ranged attack/ranged accuracy gear for +atk/str/melee accuracy gear until barrage is ready or they get 300%tp. nin/rng will miss their attacks less often than /war with the same amount of +accuracy equipments due to the /rng accuracy trait, giving /rng additional equipment slots to boost stats to improve melee damage.

Checking some damage logs posted by another nin/rng, A level 66 nin/rng against darters will do 90-130 damage per gunshot, with their katanas doing 25-40ish damage per swing, assuming they are using korrito+1 (level 66 katana). Against non flying an everage 90-100damage per shot is expected. This is without a brd.


WeaponSkills:
Slug shot can't make a level 3 chain, but it fits into alot of other chains well. Some interesting possibilities present themselves with rng sub, like being able to participate in 2 skillchains every 5minutes back to back if you party with a thf and a sam/rng.

Nin/Rng(Sharpshot)(300%tp)SlugShot >>> Dancing Edge (from Thf) > Magic burst Hyoton:Ni

Follow up with by barrage you can get almost 80%tp.
Start a 2nd skillchain using your katana (or try a slugshot again at 100%tp if you have a brd and feel lucky) with another melee in your pt like a sam/rng.

Sidewinder (from sam/rng) > (sam barrage+mediate after)
Blade:Retsu (Distortion) > (sam) Sidewinder > (Ninjitsu magic burst Huton:Ni)(detonation)

That being said, nin/rng will work more effectively with certain damage jobs than others, those than can build tp quickly such as rng or sam.

'But rank 'C' weapons have to suck especially at high levels, right?'
Samurai have a 'C' in archery and sub rng often, ninja's have more ranged accuracy/attack than a samurai due to AF legs/gloves. I can't really buy into 'C' ranked weapons sucking horribly when I see nin/war using ranked 'C' sword to do spirits within on HNM's.

In the end, I find it incredibly fun and expensive, as well as challenging to find the best gear/party balance to make it work well.
If you just want to be 75 as fast as possible, then you might want to just stay nin/war. I'm not really in the mood these days to rush to 75 and join the ranks of all the level 75 HNMLS drama queens :p

[Cade]

Dammit Navia, now I have to skill up marksmenship so I can be cool like you. (although not likely as cool)

Thanks for the info though, I had been wondering about it myself.

[Arien20]

Navia, im at school now, ill be home tonight. I will post more, but THANK YOU for posting that. Nin/rng can WORK. And im gonna try and figure out how to do it.

Will post more later. I want as much info on Nin/rng as i can get. Currently lvling up rng, at lvl 12.

[Navia]

Skilling up marksmanship
I recommend leveling RNG to 37 (or 40 so you can do BC40 with the job) and getting your skillups in marksmanship to about 120 that way.
Venom/Bloody/Sleep bolts with a power crossbow starting at level 25ranger are cheaper than gun+bullets and do good damage and status bolts can be a life saver.

'Ok my ranger sub is done, how can I get from 120-175 skill?'
Recommended Ninjitsu: Utsusemi and Kurayami.
Recommended weapons: Katana (main hand for Blade:Retsu to paralyze monsters). Archer knife for ranged acc+agi in 2nd hand.

Expenses in skilling up
My expenses incurred while skilling up 120-170s was 2 stacks of mithkabob, about 15 stacks of bullets, 3 stacks of kurayami and less than 8 stacks of shihei.
You should expect to blow about 200k in the process, not counting permanent gear expenses which isn't bad at all, I was figuring it would cost 2x that amount.

solo fight stratedgy during solo skillup
Beginning of fight opens with kurayami then sharpshot+barrage to get tp for a blade:retsu to paralyze, then just keep shooting.
using tp on something like split-shot doesnt really help and is better spent on a blade:retsu to keep the monster from attacking.
Barrage is great at giving skillups, its not uncommon to see 2-3 seperate skillup messages from 1 barrage :


Location: Western Altepa Desert

Desert Beetle(skill up to 140s)
'easy prey, low evasion' to level 61nin.
Map spot G-7 on the southern end recommended.
Good choice for target practice because kurayami and paralyze from ninja tool or blade:retsu you can tank these using only utsusemi:Ni and then rest after a number of kills where they spawn without any aggro. Evasion down and spoil are annoying but getting rhino attacked with no shadows up isn't going to outright kill you.
They link if you are fighting one but move slowly enough and are spawned far enough apart to make this not a problem.

Desert Dhalmel(skill up to 140s)
Alittle tougher than desert beetles, but much softer targets when using a gun. I did about half my skillup time from 120s to 140 on these, loot drops even without /thf are plentiful. Specials like cold stare never landed on me.

Tulwar Scorpion(Skill up to 160s)
Easy prey/Decent challenge. I get up to 61xp a kill on these, challenging fights.
Keep utsusemi up, death scissors and their freeze/paralyze specials will occasionally connect but you aren't in danger of dying to these if you are paying attention. Their sandstorm effect strips all shadows and is annoying, but still its about the safest thing to solo skillup on in this level range. Don't even think about messing with anticans.

Desert Manticore(skill up to 150s)
Easy Prey/Decent challenge.
If you want to try your hand at making a bit of gil while skilling up, sub thf and go after these. Manticore hairs and hides along with wind crystals make it worth the trouble. Watch out for Heat breath, it ignores utsusemi and does up to 250 damage but the drops make it worth the hassle and above average risk. The loss of barrage/ranger accuracy traits will hurt your accuracy a bit.


Quicksand Caves:
Helm Beetles(skill up to 170s)
Easy prey/Decent challenge.
The zone in area at J-9 has 3-4 beetles easily pullable, safe spot to rest if there isnt a mid 50s party there training anticans to the zone line. I skilled up here around midnight pacific time so I usually had the place to myself. Beastman/Kindred seals aren't uncommon loot drops. Worst rhino attack i've been hit with from these was about 200, melee critical around 100 - plenty of time to zone out or ninja 2hr if you get in over your head.
Fights are longer but the skillups keep coming.

If you have a gun belt you can get Slug Shot at 171 skill (for some reason 170base skill + 5 from the belt doesnt trigger it)

[Arien20]

thanks nav, i PMed you too, but you answered most of my questions. Lvled Rng last night from 11-17 Korrokola Tunnel. Gotta keep trucking and get rng to 37 i suppose, along the way i switched to xbow so i could keep marksmanship in line with my archery skill, so the plan is to keep them both capped in the process.

-A

[Narru]

Nice posts Navia Very informative.

Couple points:

1) For those of you who want more reading on this topic, I refer you to this thread: http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/sho...4&pagenumber=1

A lot of BSing, but a couple in there worth the time.

2) I'm interested in which actual gun you're using. Not sure if you forgot to mention it, or did not mention it intentionally (since it might have weaked your argument a bit). But I see only three options for a high level Nin/Rng:

Negoroshiki+1 - Level 42, Damage 29, Delay 582
Military Gun - Level 30, Damage 23, Delay 542, +7 R. Attack
Pirate's Gun+1 - Level 27, Damage 21, Delay 582, +5 R. Accuracy

Also ninja's cannot use silver bullets - they need to stick with regular bullets.

I don't know, but it just strikes me odd that a high level damage dealer is using a level 42 weapon with level 22 ammo. You mentioned how sam/rng's are a viable option at high levels. I agree with this mainly because they have access to high level bows and high level arrows, whereas nin/rng's are restricted to low level guns and even lower level bullets (not to mention there isn't a Conquest bullet)

3) Now I have to ask this complicated question - Is Nin/Rng (or even further - any class that can use a ranged weapon/Rng) viable mainly because of a) the /Rng sub, or b) the nature of ranged weaponry?

Obviously using both (ranged weapons and subbing ranger) would do the most damage, but if you had to break it down so that you could pick only one, but not the other (I know you can easily remove the subjob but impossible to remove the ranged weapon multiplier - just speaking hypothetically), which one is "more valuable"?

Let me diverge into a story for a minute here:

I recently came across a nin/war blink tank in the jungles (level 30ish) who was super rich and played his job very well. This discussion reminded me of the equipment he was using.

Instead of listing every piece of gear he had, I'll mention the highlights:

2 x Archer's knives - yes he wasn't using katanas
Pirate's Gun +1 and Bullets
I believe he had every single piece of Ranged Accuracy gear available at that level, and the best items for that as well. When he hit level 33, he put on his Peacock Charm.

Well I was on my decked out ranger and for the first time ever, I was shooting near full speed. That nin/war with the gear for ranged was also shooting as fast as he possibly can while keeping Utsesumi up and provoking every 30 seconds, etc. When he got 100% TP, he'll go ahead and do a Gust Slash.

Just going to throw out a couple numbers for comparison:

Rng (me)
Regular shot - 80-110
WS - Split Shot - 120-160
Barrage - 300-410

Nin (tank)
Regular shot - 70-85
WS - Gust Slash - 80-95

Obviously it would not be right for me to compare my damage with his on equal terms. But for a non-Rng, non-Thf damage dealer at that level - pretty impressive.

In any case I'm going to argue that at those lower levels (1-37 Nin), you don't need Nin/Rng for that amazing damage. You can still go Nin/War and pull out that ranged weapon (provided you have other gear that gives R.Acc) and still do great damage WHILE blink tanking and still having the option of Provoke.

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To answer my own question, I think a Ninja levels 1-59 - ranged weapon multiplier more of a factor in the equation, thus you can sub war and still pull off that damage. In other words, Nin/Rng and Nin/War both equipped for ranged attack can pull off comparable damage (sorry no parse logs, anyone want to take the time to do it? )

Ninja levels 60+ - Rng sub makes more of a difference ( mainly because of the +Acc and R.Acc traits, and because of Slug Shot ). But I have my own biases against high level Nin/Rng's.

4) Nit picking point :p - "I can't really buy into 'C' ranked weapons sucking horribly when I see nin/war using ranked 'C' sword to do spirits within on HNM's"

That's because Spirit's Within is a special weaponskill that ignores armor and does a special equation in order to calculate the damage done. None of which is dependent on the rank of the weapon.

[Arien20]

i was mainly talking about post 60. And i know this thread is going to be full of high lvl rng's bashing the hell out of nin/rng.

[Navia]

Originally posted by Narru
2) I'm interested in which actual gun you're using. Not sure if you forgot to mention it, or did not mention it intentionally (since it might have weaked your argument a bit). But I see only three options for a high level Nin/Rng:

2) I use a Negoroshiki, I haven't been able to find a +1 version on our server for the past half year. It appears you need almost 100skill in smithing to get a +1 version synthed -_-
Pirate gun+1 is rarely available and the only other gun worth using because of the +5ranged acc. I've seen it listed in AH once, and bid 300k but wasn't enough to buy it -_-.
These guns do appear to be incredibly weak paired with a level 22 bullet, but they aren't.

Interesting thing to note here concerning damage:
A 28damage/600delay gun with a 46damage /240 delay bullet can create a 2800 damage slugshot on moon bat in the hands of a ninja sporting only a 30ranged attack bonus and +13str/+13agi bonus. Slug shot is supposedly a 4x attack, but other data points it to being 5shots due to a 5x damage modifier.
Single non critical shot on a moon bat deals 360 damage every time.
Gun damage plus bullet damage is base = 74 damage. So 360damage result from 74 base damage = 4.86 multiplier for just 1 bullet.
Best slugshot i've pulled off is 2800 damage, if its a 4 shot ws, then (2800total damage/4bullets)/74base damage = slugshot gives each bullet a 9.49x multiplier which is roughly double the damage multiplier granted to normal shots.

Granted the actual in game damage computation is much more complex and I used an extreme case against something level 30ish, but it illustrates you cant judge ranged damage output by the weapon and ammuntion base damage values to melee weapons which alot of people do.
As long as slugshot continues to put out more damage than my best available katana ws'es easily, it makes it a viable damage dealing method.

Giving ninja's access to a bit higher level gun like muskateers gun and silver bullets would help, ultimately our damage is mostly capped by gun skill, ammunition and the gun. I am 12 points from being capped on marksmanship, but every point in skillup pushes my normal damage shots up a few points.

I can press my damage output higher by adding str, on darksday my katana jumps from a +3 to +7str bonus and I got consistent 600-800 damage barrages on dc/even matches in Quicksand Caves while skilling up.
Without a mithkabob and the strength bonus on my katana dropping to +3, Barrage damage drops to 350-500 range and the frequency of critical shots falls off sharply.
Tonight i'm planning to drop the ranged accuracy rings and AF feet for +str rings and rse shoes(+str) to see how this affects damage at the risk of dropping too much accuracy and agility to find out how much I can push my ranged damage up with +str.
My guess is that str increases negate the target's vitality check that pushes down the per-bullet damage multiplier which would explain the large damage improvement with just a few points of strength.

A main job Ranger with a higher level gun and bullets really has an edge on a nin/rng against high defense IT++ monsters no doubt. Their higher base damage will deliver more consistent damage and just flat out higher numbers.
The nin/rng I know of that have done real xp parties past the 60s for a number of levels always fought softer targets like bloodballs, processionaires or flying creatures like darters. Fightng some monster types just wont let the combination shine, just like asking a DRG to go poke bones with their polearms.

Originally posted by Narru
3) Now I have to ask this complicated question - Is Nin/Rng (or even further - any class that can use a ranged weapon/Rng) viable mainly because of a) the /Rng sub, or b) the nature of ranged weaponry?

c) Its a bit of both, but mainly 'a) the /Rng sub'
When your main job is past 60 and you sub ranger, the subjob is a viable choice if:
-Your main job is proficient enough to use slug shot or sidewinder. Lower level ranged weaponskills dont measure up to your main job's weaponskills in terms of accuracy and damage in my opinion. I'd sooner blade:retsu or blade:jin before hot/split/sniper shotting with my gun if the renkei called for it.
-The 2 passive accuracy traits, rapid shot, and the ability to Sharpshot & Barrage is the other part that makes the combination worth consideration. Without these you lack the ability to land attacks reliably enough or use barrage as a quick tp builder.

Side note:
I believe nin/rng is intentionally limited in their gun/ammo choice because we have a huge safety buffer with high evasion/parry and 2 utsusemi's, and of course our 2hr to avoid xp loss.
On the flip side, ranger mains spend more gil (better bullets) so they get better damage, it is also their main job function.

thf/rng and even drk/rng have a more potent ranged attack arsenal to choose from, but lack the safety buffer of utsusemi/A ranked evasion+parry and could get mauled doing something like sharpshot+barrage+slugshot at the start of a fight where a nin/rng could do this and just blink tank until the real tank got hate back.

Originally posted by Narru
Obviously using both (ranged weapons and subbing ranger) would do the most damage, but if you had to break it down so that you could pick only one, but not the other (I know you can easily remove the subjob but impossible to remove the ranged weapon multiplier - just speaking hypothetically), which one is "more valuable"?

The ranger subjob is more valuable hands down because of all the active and passive traits it gives you.
(I would go so far to say it redefines your main job, similar to how summoners feel like almost like white mages because their subjob heavily shapes their useful roles in a party)

A nin/war firing a gun wastes the warrior subjob's double attack passive because ranged weapons dont double attack. You also lose the rapid shot passive so you aren't going to be firing as quick as a nin/rng.
Berserk would boost your gun damage, but when it comes time to use your tp, all you can do is use it on a katana ws which are not known for thier damage.

Originally posted by Narru
4) Nit picking point :p - "I can't really buy into 'C' ranked weapons sucking horribly when I see nin/war using ranked 'C' sword to do spirits within on HNM's"

That's because Spirit's Within is a special weaponskill that ignores armor and does a special equation in order to calculate the damage done. None of which is dependent on the rank of the weapon.

You still have to worry about not missing which is the #1 reason why people say you shouldn't use anything but 'A' ranked weapons.

[greysenn]

The nin/rng I know of that have done real xp parties past the 60s for a number of levels always fought softer targets like bloodballs, processionaires or flying creatures like darters. Fightng some monster types just wont let the combination shine, just like asking a DRG to go poke bones with their polearms.

Do you know what their average damage was per hit? I guess if you're fighting soft skinned flying stuff, you might be doing enough damage that you're pulling hate, even if it isn't rng damage. (In which case.. it dosen't even matter because you're pulling hate.)

I do know that with the stuff I'm fighting now (Granted, Its a lot more hard shelled.) taking a hit like that to base damage would be crippling not only to DoT, but to sidewinder/slugshot.

The other thing that would worry me, is that SW/SS has the tendancy to be an inaccurate piece of crap vs IT mobs. Were they able to get an accurate enough hit rate with WS?

[Navia]

They were reporting ranged damage in the 90-130 range on soft stuff, katana hits by comparison were 30-45 damage. Right now I can get similar damage on very toughs and under, gun skill isnt capped though. If its above 'tough', I don't use slugshot unless its close to 300% just to be safe, along with sharpshot. Soloing up to evens I can let one loose at 150% without sharpshot and rarely miss.

I went and killed Simurgh last night with my ls, there was no bard for prelude's, I forgot my 2nd archer knife and federation tekko so after missing alot and landing one barrage for 300 I switched to melee acc gear and just did blade:jin 's on it. I think the only reason I could hit him was from the rng sub accuracy trait, it has insane evasion for something at least 9 levels above me, the 70s were whiffing alot on him.

It was very cool that I never got resisted once enfeebling or using elemental ninjitsu's on simurgh (207 ninjitsu skill). If my throwing skill wasn't in such a sorry state(trying to cap that too), ninja stars may have been the best choice for doing damage.