Ninja debate

[ZQM]

Actually, WAR does get a huge boost to tanking at 60. Carnage elegy makes it extremely easy to tank and puts them on the same tier as PLD and NIN on most mobs. I'd get hit, at most, 3 times a fight up to 74 with only :ichi thanks to elegy and haste. And 3 hits aren't much when you're only getting hit for 100-150 damage.

And you know what? I hated to waste a spot by being a DD and tanked my way this far. Why be a DD when I can do nearly the same exact damage (Utsusemi casts do take a bit away from damage) and tank at the same time, allowing the party to get another DD and get more EXP per hour (more power = faster kills = more exp).

[Roninblues]

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
WAR and DRK would be in the same tier, by my estimation.

RNG is clearly the best DD overall from 1-75; no one disputes this. Most of the other DDs are lumped together in a group (i.e. tier) right after RNG, with the edge going to whoever is best equipped for the situation at hand.

All of this has nothing to do with my original analogy, which was if WAR got a huge boost to their tanking ability, would that mean that they now suck at DDing?

NIN has the capability to be a good-to-excellent DD (depending on level), but because they are an outstanding tank, their DD abilities are generally dismissed.

I'd like to dispute rng being best DD from 1-75, or atleast my parser would. Lv 71 rng with great gear (Ebow and Obow, tried both on for my results) got outdamaged by our lv 70 mnk on cockatrice in kuftal. Both had about the same amount of gil invested in gear, both +1 amemits, optical hats. Mnk had specticles, dune boots, and cross counters.

Mnk did about 5% more per fight. I guess you could argue rng wasn't using sidewinder, he was using arching arrow for SC. But since most partied like lv 3 SCs, kind of a moot point.

Btw, we didn't even bother parsing vs bones lol. 90+ damage per hit from monk with around 90% acc is insane.

[Kiyosuki]

I think what it comes down to in the end isn't who does the most damage, but the different styles and methods each DD respectively follows to actually do the damage. Thats almost always what makes or breaks a fighter in a situation, or separates the heavy hitter's from the capable.

Regardless, when it comes to Ninja, pretty much everyone agree's they're quite capable of laying down the pain real hard, but they can do that while tanking to so thats why they're catagorized as tanks often.

If a party had a Ninja, and a Paladin in some bizzare case, it'd probably be smarter to have the Ninja play Damage Dealer and Paladin play tank because while both can do the tanking job, Ninja's can actually lay on the pain while Paladin's are very well geared almost totally towards defense, so it'd be the most logical conclusion if you wanted the party to go faster to have the potentially more damaging of the two take advantage of that, while the other who's geared much more towards defensive melee and tanking do that.

But in this situation, if that Paladin decided to leave the party...the party wouldn't have to get another Tank because the Ninja can slip right into it. They can invite another DD.

I can't simplify the situation with Ninja's fighting only any simpler than that. :sweat:

[Malleus]

Our main tank is a PLD, our Nin is our Thfs trick partner. Sometimes I join in the trick fun, too, but mainly our Nin and I wail away. I have always beat him out in melee dmg, but when we add his spell dmg he overtakes my total dmg.

Is it cheap? Hell no. He spends tons, but he and our blm have a cycle going, enfeeble to wind, blm casts wind, enfeeble to ice, blm casts ice, etc. This all subject to the mob we're fighting, of course, and they setup for our WSchains also, but it works unbelievably well, we end up not having to rest, ever. Pull after pull, quickly slayed by the chains, plus the bursts, plus the enfeebling. It moves so quickly. So, can a Nin be a DD? No question about it, especially if you're elvaan (str).

Will most Nin not wanna hear that? Probably not. Am I saying that Nin can't tank, nope. Is that the only thing Nin can do, nope. Do most Nins (myself included, plz c profile, I have Nin lvld) have to relax? Yup, I think so. B/c you don't tank doesn't mean you've lost your identity. Being able to tank is PART of the strength of the Nin class, its so versatile it can do so much.

Our Nin adds so much to our pt, our blm loves him, our Pld appreciates his back up abilities, our thf loves the trick partner and i love that i can berserk, aggressor an' all that w/no worries. He loves the fact that he fills so many roles.

Just my experiences here, maybe our static is different than most, but we love what we have setup^^.

Ltr

[Kiyosuki]

So your Ninja pal and his Black Mage buddy work closely together huh? Thats pretty cool. The ultra rare occasions where a Black Mage isn't lazy and actually works with me and my enfeeebles are really awsome. Its too bad it seems so rare..

It seems like the Asian classes always work extremely well with a black mage..

So like Samurai I guess maybe if Ninja's are in a party to DD they're ability to open up that magical damage while relying on solid melee of some kind. It seems like a similar concept, being an indirect fighter and all.

I don't see why people would scoff at the idea of playing fighter really. Ofcourse it'd work better with a Bard, or a Black Mage, or a Summoner in the backline, Ninja's get along with all those guys wonderfully. I wish to feel the power of Music+Fenrir+Magic Burst with Ni enfeebling all at the same time one day..

But no matter what Ninja's are still gonna be tanks, its no different. If anything, its an extra option and I think thats nothing to scoff at. I think Ninja's and Warrior's subbing Nin are lucky. Ofcourse both are extremely dynamic jobs that require skill to play, but so do most of the jobs. Nin's and War's have the luxury of being able to play Damage Dealer nicely, and also be able to be invited to play tank which is a highly sought after position. (War's leaning a little bit more towards DD and Nin's more towards Tanking, but can still do the other side)

Paladin's are pretty much restricted to tanking pretty much all the time. They do it fantastically, but they wouldn't be able to slip into the Damage Dealer circles quite a smoothly as either a Nin or War. And its the same with DD's. A Dark Knight, Thief, Samurai etc will pretty much never be invited to be a tank, which would tend to be more sought after than a DD position. Albiet Monks and Samurai could backuptank for sata, but so can both Nin and War.

War with at least a /Nin or /Thf sub (And /Sam, and /Mnk...pretty much everything a War can use, which is alot), and Ninja/Warrior really are in great positions to be able to play both sides of the frontline coin smoothly, so really there's nothing to complain about really, if anyone does.

Warrior's have become a lot more sought after than a few months ago I noticed, and Ninja's I've noticed also have been more accepted to play DD if they need to with the right strategy. Its pretty cool that the sheer variety aspect of these two jobs is starting to become a real main attraction to people looking for parties. Its a pretty good time to be either of the two right now, they're variety is very handy.

[Gryff]

the starter/basic melee jobs have always been looked down on by NA players generally.

monks/thiefs/war generally used to have a really hard time getting invites past 30, I myself was guilty of thinking all three of the above sucked badly for quite a while

[Kiyosuki]

It must be the ultimate commupance for Monks past 60, when you all fight bones and the party has to suck up to the Monk a bit for a change. XD

[ZQM]

Originally posted by Gryff
the starter/basic melee jobs have always been looked down on by NA players generally.

monks/thiefs/war generally used to have a really hard time getting invites past 30, I myself was guilty of thinking all three of the above sucked badly for quite a while

The main prolem is early levels. First reactions means a lot to a person.

WARs will and forever be marked as the "noob" job early in the game, since it's the best subjob for all the "advanced" jobs that every new player wants to be. This then puts the new players in the mindset that they don't need to worry about WAr because hey, what does it matter? It's not like it's their main. They should be focusing on their main and use Scythes, Polearms, swords, ect. And, ofcoarse, they perform horribly.

MNKs really aren't that good early on. Much like NINs, they don't have enough Martial Arts and Haste equip like they do late game. Another problem is that, while there are Bone camps at nearly ever level range, 1) most people don't know where (nor do they want to level outside the box) and 2) bones are very bad mob to EXP off of. They have some of the worst job abilities in the game. Not that it matters later in the game though, since with a couple of monks the mob doesn't last long enough to use many abilities. :sweat:

Then ofcoarse THF. Somehow, a lot of people are under the ssumption that a SJ THF performs better then a main THF, which (as most of us know) is completely false. This doesn't have to do more with early game experience then it does false statements on a forum.

[Malleus]

I think players (myself included) need to start looking at party combinations as opposed to job combinations. With refresh, regen, etc, our PLD almost nvr needs a break, we almost never slow down.

When he does, our nin tanks for a fight or two. So we end up w/zero downtime (and saving our nin a bit o gil - but just a bit, the elemental wheel is pricey, too). But they keep that elemental wheel going b/c it makes such a difference. Not just w/the blm, I believe that when our nin has weakened to wind, and I end a chain w/sturmwind that my damage is compounded. I did 417 (my new hi^^) on an IT helm beetle in quicksand last night.

So yea, I thnk if we worried more about putting a good pt together, then nins don't always have to tank.

[stray]

In the 40's, and even part of the 50's I paired with a Paladin a few times. It worked out well, but past a point it's really not that viable imo... overall damage output just isn't enough to keep a real chain alive. One pally brought kabobs so he could be a DD ^_^

Which isn't to say Nin can't be relatively potent with it's flurries of hits... just that once you're staring down 20k, 30k a level it's nicer to be more involved.

As far as Warrior as a top tier DD... I'd put them slightly below Monks... *But* if they're wearing AF they can turn seek back on. Nothing like having a Warrior do Warcry/Berserk/Provoke and then have the mob not even flinch when a Thief or Drk does a fuidama behind me.

[Malleus]

A non tank Nin can be more involved than just hitting. They can use the elemental wheel in conjuction w/their blm. Our Nin and Blm absolutely adore it.^^

It actually seems more fun to me b/c you get to cast more than 1 spell.