Ninja debate

[Cade]

I'm utterly confused by people that think ninja can do something other than tank. I got into abit of an arguement with some LS members who strongely disagreed with Ninja being only to blink-tank. Paladins can't do anything other than tank. So why do people get testy when they're told Ninja can't do otherwise?!?

So instead of arguing bout it, I'm asking anybody who thinks differently to find me solid evidence that a ninja is a useful party member when not blink-tanking. Either find me a thread on some forum that states such, or compose a compelling debate on your behalf.

...and to kick things off....

Debuffing job: Rediculous. Ninja only debuffing is like a Redmage without cures or refresh.

Damage Dealer: Its true, Ninja makes an OK damage dealer, but only slightly better than Paladin. So why would you invite a Ninja to be a damage dealer when you can get an actual job (Monk, Dragoon, Darkknight) that does it better?

"Well waitaminute, a Ninja that uses shuriken is an excellent damage dealer! What about that!?!"

Heres the catch, shuriken = steel ingots = very very expensive. A ninja who actually regularly uses shuriken will spend more money xping than a ranger will. How many do you think actually want/do that?

Tanking: Ninja's have A+ in evasion. They have Utsusemi which absorbs hits they don't dodge. Their debuffing (blind, slow, paralyze) is made specifically in order to be able to tank BETTER.

After stating such FACTs to these people they pulled the bullshit excuse of, "Well we all have our own opinions, so nobodies right or wrong."

I'm not stating opinion, however. Am I?

[ZQM]

A Warrior can tank (and best on certain monsters/situations, i.e. Manticores) and can also be a damage dealer, so your point with Paladin only being a tank is moot.

A ninja has the strongest debuffs in the game.

A ninja has one of, if not the, best DoT 65+ in most situations. The only catch is weak WSs..but hey, Fagoons still get PTs and they suck at both areas. :p

Now, here's the uber thing. They can do all that, AND tank at the same time. It's not that a ninja sucks at other jobs, because they are infact one of if not the best at them...it's just they can do the other jobs on top of tanking. So by not tanking, they are becoming less efficent. EXP is all about efficency.

[Cade]

You lost me... how is Paladin only being able to tank a moot point? I stated Paladin is only good for tanking, which they are, having high defense and low attack.

I never said anything about warriors...

[oozma]

I got a pt as ninja before, the pt had a paladin in it.
the pld wanted to tank and we had a lot of downtime, so i asked him if he wants me to tank to lower DT... he told me "no, nin cant tank, nin are only good for debuff" -_-

and.... thf has way better evasion than ninja

[Rogan]

well true yes they can tank decently using utsusemi and dodging but the thing is they really can't hold hate...I mean they're quite terrible at it, really...and about shurikens, SE did say that nin is the most expensive job, maybe that's why...

[ZQM]

Originally posted by Cade
You lost me... how is Paladin only being able to tank a moot point? I stated Paladin is only good for tanking, which they are, having high defense and low attack.

I never said anything about warriors...

Originally posted by Cade
Paladins can't do anything other than tank. So why do people get testy when they're told Ninja can't do otherwise?!?

Sorry, I mistook that as a "if your class is a tank class, you can't do anything but tank."

EDIT

Originally posted by Rogan
but the thing is they really can't hold hate...I mean they're quite terrible at it, really

LOL, please tell me you're joking.

Yeah, a SHITTY ninja can't hold tank, but neither can a shitty PLD.

Until you party with a proper Ninja, you can't really say anything about how they hold hate.

[Kiyosuki]

Ninja's can play DD, ofcourse they won't be as good as some of the other's but the thing is, is that Ninja doesn't exactly transform between tanking and fighting, gearing towards one over the other at a time like Warrior..they stay the same. If a Nin was in a pt with a Pld playing DD, they could take over tanking role and nothing would be lost..they're still doing the exact same thing..just using Utsusemi to tank.

I mean, a Ninja could gear themselves towards damage in equipment than evasive, but not a whole lot would change unless maybe..they went really hardcore with haste/dual wield upgrade equipment and some str/attack, but even then not much is gained or lost really.

Thing is, is Ninja's CAN play another role in the party, but they can slip into tanking easilly at the same time. IF you had a party frontline of Drg, Drk, Nin. The Nin can play DD..but they can tank at the same time..so why not? Certainly shouldn't leave it to the Drg or the Drk. IF in a frontline of Pld, Drg, Nin..the Pld can tank..but so can the Ninja. Thing is, is the Ninja can play DD a bit better than a Pld could, so they can perform that too. After some DW upgrades, if a Ninja has a lot of accuracy and some str they can put up a pretty good fight if they have to. Its just...if a Pld wasn't there...a Ninja can tank at the same time. So its like...if a Ninja was in a Pldless party..it'd be a total waste not to have them tank, since they don't lose anything really, just some offense.

So to answer your question, Ninja's very much can do other things...they can , but in Exp pt's, if they're there without a Pld..they're the best candidate to tank, so why not? In HNM and God battles its the same thing, if you got a bunch of Pld's and Nin's, might as well have them tank because they can , I don't think anyone will want the Rdm or Drg to tank will they? lol

So just because they usually don't, doesn't mean they can't deal damage, its just that in parties they're best position is dealing some steady damage and tanking at the same time.

*sigh*, Ninja hate keeping's becoming a seriously lost art. With a Thf Ninja's can keep hate easilly, and even without one they can keep hate decently if one knows how to do it. Not as much as a Pld, but if Ninja's could keep hate as well as a Pld then it'd be unbalanced wouldn't it? Lots of wannabe Ninja's just don't know how to distribute they're melee damage, the proper order of Enfeebles, and provoke well. They mindlessly spam without organization, or don't let any melee get out or don't enfeeble at all. Thats a bad Ninja. Wish there were less, its really not that much harder to play Ninja properly than people make it sound. Lazyness. You get used to it.

Ninja's and Paladin's have actually a very different way of keeping hate. Pld's can attain it in huge amounts in a short amount of time, or lay loose on it and grab it back with another huge burst of emnity. Thats why Pld's can steal hate so easilly on the flip of a dime.
Ninja's keep hate in a series of spikes and hate bumps as well as casual hate build up. Instead of taking it all at once, they keep it at the end of a thin thread constantly like a kite. Trick is you want your "thread" to be made of iron, so you KEEP it right where you want it. lol Thats the subtlety I think a lot of wannabe Ninja's don't understand. They try to keep hate like a Pld, doing it all at once rushed..but they can't. It has to be gradual and constant.

Just be sure to have a good graphics processor and a decent connection. lol If your comp can barely handle animation without skipping and going all stop motion...I'm afraid no matter how good you are you'll be a dead Ninja. Take it from me....

Thank god for the recent server migration..

Although on a final note, I will say although a Ninja can keep hate ok on they're own, I do think its time to at least get Dokumori and Jubaku Ni. Even with those we won't be as much of a hate sponge as Pld, but it'll certainly be useful. God forbid we one day get the San's..but I don't want to get to far ahead of the current situation. Doku and Juba Ni would make the hate spike much easier though due to acumulated hate over time. Does anyone else agree? I don't think it would hurt Pld hate keeping in the least, and it would certainly lower the number of bad Ninja's out there...even though they still need to know how to keep hate as a NINJA, not a Paladin.

I highly recommend people use a Mermaid's Ring if you can get it, if you don't feel your hate keeping is the best it can be it makes a good crutch or if your very good at it, makes it even better a little. I tried one recently from someone else in a party I was in to see the difference and it really made a big one if you keep hate Ninja style. That small emnity bonus sounds minute, but it does acumulate with everything you do over time. Still no match for a Pld's hate steal, but I think its a very good item for Ninja's to have on hand. I'm certainly getting one when all this Promyvion nonsense is finally over.

[lufia22]

I'm sorry, but I read the posts and I haven't seen the question even answered correctly yet. I came to this board to research this very topic and I'm very unsatisfied with the answers because they seem to dodge the subject.

Lets say your PT has a tank. Lets don't even talk about tanking ok? If PT has a tank, would you ever consider inviting NIN to a party? I'm actually very interested in this because I find myself in debates sometimes where I just lack this information. Can NINs actually play a role besides tank and not be outclassed by another job? Supposedly SE didn't even want NINs to tank in the first place. If this is true, how good would a non-tanking NIN be?

I think that's what I got from this topic and I really didn't see anyone answer this fully.

BTW, since I only leveled NIN to 25 and quit THF and took up BRD thus ending my reason to level NIN, could you supply evidence or personal experience. Saying NIN has the best DoT or something like that without giving someone who doesn't know the job evidence as to why leaves me kind of clueless and having to trust your word.

[Kiyosuki]

Ok...I'll try to narrow it a bit.


1-30:
Before 30 the difference between melee's is minimal compared to after.
Ninja/Warrior: Ninja Warrior could be invited as a DD, but it would be a last choice. Unless the Ninja is proficient in using throwing weapons of some sort, darts at first, then shuriken, and has the skill capped. Then they can be very decent DD at these levels. I used Shuriken to a large extent at these levels and they really helped out. My Damage was on par with Dark Knights at these levels thanks to them. So without, they're ok, with throwing they've quite good. Most would use Ninja/Warrior to tank, so unless you had a Pld in your party, most of the time he would dual tank with another solid melee regardless of using Shuriken or not.
Ninja/Ranger: At levels 20-30 aprox its been proven that this combo is highly effective as a damage dealer. Its very effective since Ninja's get access to powerful gun's and ammo for them at these levels, and Ranger's don't have they're insane abilities to augment they're ranged attack yet, nor they're better weapons. So at these levels, Nin/Rng can be basically counted as another Ranger, maybe better, maybe worse. But very useful if someone can afford it, so it'll be rare.

Summary: Yes, Ninja's can be DD with use of throwing weapons here, where they're most reliable. They're a very nice crutch for your slow DW here. Most of the time they're backup tank anyways. Ninja/Ranger works most of all in this range, so if you can handle it give it a shot and read up on it.

30-50.

Ninja/Warrior: Ninja's can be ok as Damage Dealer, but once again its always a last resort. One often used tactic is the Pld/Thf/Nin or War/Nin, Thf/ Nin frontline combo. With some damage orientated equipment they could do ok, but 30-37 they don't have Utsusemi Ni yet, so they're still mostly backup tanks that can fight a bit. Similar use to the earlier levels. After 37, unless you have a Pld in the party the Ninja is the best candidate to tank, so it will do that most of the time.

In rare occasions where a Ninja does party with a Pld, its highly recommended you:
1. make a macro to switch between evasion to strength/attack equipment if you can get it, get life belt in the late 40's if you can.
Ochiudos Kote really help in this particular situation, but I know they're rather hard to get so I won't say its essential.
2. Bring Meat Mithrakabobs or they're more powerful version, Chiefkabobs if you can for the extra kick
3. PArty with a Thief. A Thief juggling hate between a Pld and a Ninja is often a decent setup for this situation.

All and all, if pting with a Pld a Ninja will do fine, especially with more attack orientated equipment. But just know the party won't go as fast as if Ninja were replaced with a dedicated DD, or the Nin were the tank and a DD or Warrior were the other DD. But its just fine. I've been invited to be a backup tank, semi DD to a Pld many times. Its not my ideal setup, but it works fine if there's nothing else.

Note: Throwing weapons begin to become notoriously innacurate and extremely expensive in these levels, thus why they're used far less at this point.

Another note: You're going to start to realize, that Warriors are a Ninja's best friend ever. The perfect combination of balanced damage and ability to take hate, espeically as War/Nin. I recommend party with them often, but it doesn't necessarilly make the party the best. It can..but nothing's in stone.

50-60

Please keep in mind this is where I currently am, so I don't want to go ahead of myself too much. I know what I read on the boards and am suggested.

50-55. With Double attack, you can be pretty decent. Ochiudo's Kote with STR rings, and maybe attack or str earrings for certain situations along with berserk and mithrakabobs can have your ninja hitting 40-50 per hit, 2-3-4 times on certain exp mobs. (And with haste on you one way or another ,that double attack hits in pretty often.) Good spam damage but the DD's WS's really start to separate themselves from you. While Nin weapon skilsl rarely pass 200-300 at this point, DD WS's are going as high as 600+ Thats what separates Ninja's from those guys. So its gotta be all about our dot and how fast we get the Renkei out to make up for it.

The best thing I can say at these levels, is Ninja's are situational Damage Dealer's. That ability to take hate and dodge all hits should often be taken advantage of, thus why Ninja's work wonders with another Warrior and a Thief passing hate around. Damage comes out very nicely with good dot and two jobs that deal great WS damage, and Ninja's getting it out very fast. If pting with a Pld, the same setup works well, although the Pld will lack the ability to do as much damage as the War. Pld
s are just more geared towards being a solo tank than Warrior or Ninja, but they can do the partner tank thing.

If you have no Thief, and someone invites the Ninja as just a run of the mil DD, its is going to be a last resort. If thats the case, just let either the pld tank and you go total dd in equip, or you tank and um...let pld damage,WHich I really don't recommend myself. Although Ninja's can dodge all hate, they can also do more damage potentiall than Pld's. In the ultra rare situations where this happens, I let the Pld tank and replace all my evasion with atk/accuracy/str. Then I get good dot out, and although my ws's are weak, they come out fast so renkei can be faster achieved.

In most cases if a Nin has to be a non tank I recommend a thf with you. They can do it without one though, but know that it will never be a first choice. I know it seems great once in a while to get a break from using constant shihei, and it is. :D But you don't wanna be a leech, so make up for it by making your dw strikes hurt a lot. Get haste often, and go all out.

55-75

After this I have no personal experience. I've heard various post 60 stories of Ninja's doing well as DD's if the need arises. a 65+ Pt of Pld, Nin, Nin was one story, and the Ninja's used lots of attack and str. as well as accuracy gear and made sure to get haste all the time, and the Blade:Jin's came out like crazy and it supposedly worked surpsinigly well. At higher levels since Ninja's get the fastest Dual Wield they deal considerably dot, that can be taken even further with equipment bonuses and Blade Jin, Ten, and Ku while still behind all the other DD WS's, deal more damage than the KAtana weapon skills before it by a long shot.

This area though, as I said, isn't my turf at all. But if what I hear overall is right, Ninja's can play DD very well at these levels, but its never a first choice. A Ninja can still attack well and tank evasively as a tank so thats usually first choice. But if a Nin decides to go even further with damage equipment I'm sure they *can* do it.

[Ozymandis]

Originally posted by lufia22
Lets say your PT has a tank. Lets don't even talk about tanking ok? If PT has a tank, would you ever consider inviting NIN to a party? I'm actually very interested in this because I find myself in debates sometimes where I just lack this information. Can NINs actually play a role besides tank and not be outclassed by another job?

If we were fighting soft mobs, and my choices were a DRG, a SAM, and another NIN, I'd be tempted to choose him. We can do on-par damage or outdamage those "lesser" melees when properly equipped.

[Grizzlebeard]

There are a number of issues that have prevented me levelling my Nin past 23. Level 24 onwards there are some expensive upgrades that are needed supposedly to be able to be an effective Nin so before I shelled out on these I looked around me and saw peoples' perceptions of the class. I rarely if ever see Ninjas in xp groups on Fenrir at my level as a paladin. Now, maybe this is ignorance on the part of people forming xp groups but they always seem to go for Pld first and War a distant second. This was a big concern for me, after all, why struggle to finance my ninja to 50+ only to find I'm not wanted in xp parties?

Secondly, I've always been interested in a ninja as a non-tanking class but rather a support DD and enfeebling class. Again, general consensus was why invite a nin to do this when they can have a Rdm's refresh combined with enfeebles and get a real DD class. The real clincher was the semi-nerfing of Utsusemi. This seemed like a clear message from S-E that they didn't intend a ninja to be a viable tanking class.

These are my perceptions and I appreciate there are kick ass ninjas out there who can play this class well and get invites but for me the task of convincing a server full of people with the views I've mentioned didn't seem like the fun aspect I expect to get from playing a game.

[Rogan]

LOL, please tell me you're joking.

Yeah, a SHITTY ninja can't hold tank, but neither can a shitty PLD.

Until you party with a proper Ninja, you can't really say anything about how they hold hate.


umm...I have partied with plenty good and bad nin, mostly the good nin are jp, don't know why, anyways, the fact is you can't do half the stuff you can with a paladin tank, blm can in no way get away with cast high lvl ga spells or ancient magic with a nin, and my drk friend can very rarely use job abilities, it's like common sense an average pld will hold hate better than an average nin

[Gryff]

I can see nin/rng doing ok at low-medium levels, but I don't see why anyone would read around the job and then decide NOT to level ninja as a blinktank, sure if you want to experiment a little with some SJs go ahead, but ninjas best role is a blinktank.

Its like people saying whm can damage deal, sure its true they can, but a drg 15 levels lower will do more damage.

It doesn't mean its good/effective/the best solution.


Then there are the idiots who say "I don't want to be a cookie cutter/follow the herd/ I shop at hot topic on my parents CC and am different wearing black and listening to shitty produced "underground" bands that are no difference from boyband342625 except for the genre they play*"





*may not be true in all circumstances, please get a sense of humour.**


** Sad I actually have to add this you fucking retards.

[Gryff]

Originally posted by Grizzlebeard
There are a number of issues that have prevented me levelling my Nin past 23. Level 24 onwards there are some expensive upgrades that are needed supposedly to be able to be an effective Nin so before I shelled out on these I looked around me and saw peoples' perceptions of the class. I rarely if ever see Ninjas in xp groups on Fenrir at my level as a paladin. Now, maybe this is ignorance on the part of people forming xp groups but they always seem to go for Pld first and War a distant second. This was a big concern for me, after all, why struggle to finance my ninja to 50+ only to find I'm not wanted in xp parties?

Secondly, I've always been interested in a ninja as a non-tanking class but rather a support DD and enfeebling class. Again, general consensus was why invite a nin to do this when they can have a Rdm's refresh combined with enfeebles and get a real DD class. The real clincher was the semi-nerfing of Utsusemi. This seemed like a clear message from S-E that they didn't intend a ninja to be a viable tanking class.

These are my perceptions and I appreciate there are kick ass ninjas out there who can play this class well and get invites but for me the task of convincing a server full of people with the views I've mentioned didn't seem like the fun aspect I expect to get from playing a game.

Ninja is much loved, only up to 37 will pld and maybe war be searched for first.

Secondly even tanking I still enfeeble, DD and tank, there is no problem here if you have a little skill.

As for utsusemi being nerfed? most AE is considered breath attacks so ignores utsusemi but doesnt remove it, or only removes one shadow, some from certain monsters will eat 2-3 and that makes them harder to tank but the number of exp monsters it effects is ~2. ( Perytons and Golem ).

Getting ninja to 37 can be a pain, but just exp it when there is another ninja or a war/nin in your level range and share tanking, small damage cut but you get damage free tanking and decent damage.

[_11of8]

Here's a good, rather expensive, example:

Ninja Damage Dealer

I'd love to see a paladin keep hate like this guy can. Only problem is it's so damn expensive, you'll probably never see one. I believe he was using all HQ elemental staffs and taking advantage of the elemental circle.

Even taking 25 damage off of the damage for non HQ staffs, that's still 145 damage from each ninjitsu spell, not including the occasional weapon strike or the double MB you can get off. That's a hell of a lot of damage considering cast times for ni spells are 2 seconds?


So yes, Ninja can be a damage dealer. Oh, and yes, he was tanking too. Not much of a choice with that kind of damage. Any good damage dealing ninja is going to end up being the tank, so I find the argument that ninja's can be something other then a tank to be a flawed argument.

It's not that Ninja's can't do damage; it's that they'll end up being the tank if they go that route, so they might as well tank & do damage.

Edit for Typos