Byrnie...

[Matkun]

Originally posted by Gryff

my net stats. ( the important ones )

attack+68
accuracy+23
evasion+16
[/B]

I've been slowly building a damage-focused NIN too, and I was wondering, have you experimted with switching out some of that ATK gear for more STR?

I'm building mine more STR prioritized (well, where it's reasonable, ie: stuff like Ochido's Kote or Hairpin isn't getting traded out), since the damage equation 'curve' is determined by two equations..

Weapon DMG + STR - Enemy VIT

and

ATK - Enemy Def

Having 20-30% more ATK then enemy DEF starts to give diminishing returns from what I've seen, and 20-30% less ATK then DEF gives diminishing losses.. What I'm trying to do to maximize it, is have ATK at some 20% more then enemy DEF, AND have my STR as high as I can get it to get the curve as high on the damage scale as I can get it.

[Kiyosuki]

This is great stuff Gryff! Very interesting way to play around with Nin/War. I guess most have had the idea of being 100% evasion based that we've sort of forgotten how flexible the job really is.

The point of Blink tanks has always been in exchange for stability and solid defense, you evade and attack in a balanced manner. Thing is, is that the evade part has been looked at far more and maybe thats why Ninja's haven't been able to generally keep hate very well in comparison to Paladin's. Maybe generally there's a part of Ninja that hasn't been very well explored by players, the part that has the Ninja not only evading and stalling attacks like crazy, but giving back a great amount of small but constantly flowing pain that racks up, making up for weak WS's (that probably come out very fast compared to the other melee's, aside from Samurai ofcourse). If you think about it if a Ninja works like that, it really is the polar opposite to Paladin.

Maybe when the first players came up with Ninja's blink tanking, thats how they intended it to originally be. A perfect mix of evasion and offensive, evasive offense, rather than flat out evasion only.

Its something I definitely want to try when I get a bit higher, though I may try to balance them out, as of 63 with 50 aprox atk, 37day-43 night evasion, and 18-20 accuracy.

It certainly sounds a hell of a lot more exciting being this speedy dangerous thing than a flat out dodger, although with proper use of macro's and extra equipment, you can certainly be that if the situation calls for it. The "oh crap!" setup as you put it.

Evasion is great, but I always felt that Ninja's multiplying attack power has always been its most underestimated and underlooked feature.

[Gryff]

Originally posted by Matkun
I've been slowly building a damage-focused NIN too, and I was wondering, have you experimted with switching out some of that ATK gear for more STR?

I have +5str, not much I admit. but I don't really see where I could put more in without sacrificing something more important.

Once I get a little higher I might try those +4 str rings if I can get a bard and see what the results are.



I'd also like to clarfiy a point I made.

Thats why ninjas with excessive evasion and not enough atk/acc have to spam their elemental wheel to keep hate.

By this I mean that if a ninja has too much evasion they will not be casting as many utsusemi per fight, and also their attack power ( be it str/acc/atk ) is going to be considerably lower, because they have replaced items like amemet+1, body piece, ochiudos, rings, with stuff like scorp, AF/arhats hands, bat cape, tiger or jadeite rings.



Also, my current setup can now be found in my sig, and I managed to pickup some arhats hakama+1 today, I've been using the regular hakama and found that utsusemi cast hate is now -> katana swing again so I'm looking forward to using them tonight.

[Kiyosuki]

*laughs at Gryff's Mog replacement choice*

"I'll change your job for you hun. ^_^"

[Uroboros]

Originally posted by Matkun
Also, we've found out that there is a hard cap on weapon delay of 150. If you haste someone with Beestinger, they don't swing any faster.

We'll test it out soon, if there is a similar 300 delay cap on Dual-wield, that is that you can't swing two weapons faster then 300 delay.

But first we need to get the other 150 delay dagger for our RDM, or for me to reach 45 with my Ninja so I can get near 300 delay with two 190 delay katanas.

Um, what? This isn't true. I've used Hornetneedle, Beestinger, and Platoon Dagger on my RDM, and they are all faster hasted. Screwing around on RDM/NIN with Hornet/Platoon hasted the rate of swinging both arms is basically the same as swinging a normal low delay sword once. Haste makes a noticeable difference on the 150 delay daggers.

[imac2much]

Originally posted by Matkun
Can't use Sarashi for one thing. You have to be /NIN for it to activate, and you can't be /NIN if your main NIN

Also, we've found out that there is a hard cap on weapon delay of 150. If you haste someone with Beestinger, they don't swing any faster.

We'll test it out soon, if there is a similar 300 delay cap on Dual-wield, that is that you can't swing two weapons faster then 300 delay.

But first we need to get the other 150 delay dagger for our RDM, or for me to reach 45 with my Ninja so I can get near 300 delay with two 190 delay katanas.

Sarashi is crap anyway. It's only extra 1% dual wield haste, unlike most other "enhance dual wield" items which are +5% dual wield haste.

I'm almost positive there is no minimum delay cap for weapons. I have read several tests in JP forums and some other things that Apple Pie directed me toward. According to one of them (which he kindly translated), there IS a minimum TP gain you get. As you know, the amount of TP you gain is directly correlated with the delay on your weapon. That is why THF/NIN has a TP advantage to any other melee (besides SAM) if they have perfect accuracy. They are attacking fast but gaining the minimum TP gain per hit, which is actually more than they should be getting considering their delay.

I can't remember the website off the top of my head, I will have to dig it up from history.

[Matkun]

Originally posted by Uroboros
Um, what? This isn't true. I've used Hornetneedle, Beestinger, and Platoon Dagger on my RDM, and they are all faster hasted. Screwing around on RDM/NIN with Hornet/Platoon hasted the rate of swinging both arms is basically the same as swinging a normal low delay sword once. Haste makes a noticeable difference on the 150 delay daggers.

Yeah, that's how we tested it. The RDM used Beestinger, Hasted himself and there was no increase in swing rate. We timed it. It could have changed since we last tried though, can someone please time for 10 or 20 swings of Beestinger, and then 10 or 20 swings of Beestinger + Haste?

[Uroboros]

Originally posted by Matkun
Yeah, that's how we tested it. The RDM used Beestinger, Hasted himself and there was no increase in swing rate. We timed it. It could have changed since we last tried though, can someone please time for 10 or 20 swings of Beestinger, and then 10 or 20 swings of Beestinger + Haste?

I don't need to time it, the difference is obvious. I've been using a Hornetneedle for something like five months now. The difference is there. There's no "testing" needed. With Haste + Hornetneedle the difference is obvious, and with subbing NIN and using two 150 delay daggers with passive /NIN Haste and mage Haste the difference is huge.

[Matkun]

Originally posted by Uroboros
I don't need to time it, the difference is obvious. I've been using a Hornetneedle for something like five months now. The difference is there. There's no "testing" needed. With Haste + Hornetneedle the difference is obvious, and with subbing NIN and using two 150 delay daggers with passive /NIN Haste and mage Haste the difference is huge.

SO has the RDM that did the testing. And 'obvious' differences don't mean shit without testing. I could swear that any Scythe has -10 accuracy built in compared to Greatsword, but I have parsed and no matter how much I percieve that Scythe misses a lot more then greatsword, the acc rates are actually the same.

So please DO test, because our perception is very very biased.

[Ozymandis]

Originally posted by Gryff
stuff

In addition to the hate that damage generates, it also adds to the group's total damage output and speeds experience.

The way I see it, it's nice to evade, certainly you have to evade at least a bit, but as long as you're not getting hit you might as well try to do as much damage to the mob as you can.

I'm going the damage-focused route as well. Byrnie and kote and snipers... not sure about Bomb Core yet, probably... might use RG neck and Bat Cape instead of Evasion Torque and Anemit... trying to find a balance between attack and accuracy.

I'm in a static with a bard. Carnage Elegy is so freakin' incredible... except sometimes versus Perytons I haven't had a problem getting my shadows to hold out. So for me it just doesn't make sense to pump up my evasion too much... I'm not going to need to evade too much not to take damage.