Will Ninja/Monk any good?

[Cbot]

Two of my favorite class,hehe!

[bbcradical_ed]

... no

[--e]

nin/mnk is teh FSCKing BOMB, yo!!!!!!111oneone

I read on gamefaqs.com that you grow an extra pair of arms and dual-wield your FSCKing *FISTS* !!!!!!!111oneone

Ph34r !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111



--e

[Kiyosuki]

I'm afraid its not very good. If Martial Arts increased the speed of Dual Wield, and Ninja's could get kick one day it'd rock as far as melee damage goes. But it doesn't. Ninja's are two sword experts, so the hand to hand specific abilities of monk don't help dual wield at all. You could get boost and counter, which could be good for soloing certain nm's or monsters. But otherwise party wise, they can't do anything that good old fashioned Evasion equipment, and Berserk, and Double attack (increases hits from 2, to 3 or 4 at a fast speed later) can do. Add to the fact later you can get a certain equip that gives you counter a tiny bit if you so choose, and really Mnk doesn't offer much to Ninja. No Martial Arts wielding Shiek esque Ninja's in this game.

Ninja's have a C in hand to hand, which is really no match for they're Dual Wield bonuses.

It'd sure be awsome if Ninja's got the kick passive as well. It'd go with a Ninja's way of fighting, quick sword fighting with an occasional kick. But thats not the case here.

[Cade]

Duel wield claws! You'd wear the other pair on your feet!!!

When attacking you just sorta dance like a mad-man, like say how an octopus plays the drums.

[laicram]

With all this blink tank patch drama, it's fun to look into other options.

I'm bringing War/Mnk and Mnk/War exp into the discussion. Perhaps some experienced Nins can "fill in the blanks" if I'm missing some points...

A War/Mnk using H2H gets Raging Fists at 46. Even with the D rating in skill, Raging Fists is so powerful, that H2H becomes the most damaging weapon WAR/MNK can use until 55, when War gets Rampage w/Axe.

Although damage IS better, the disadvantages of switching to H2H during 46-55 is that 1) You lose Shield Break 2) You lose certain Skillchain starters not using 1H Axe. 3) No Parry/Shield Skillup. I don't wanna gimp my Axe skills, so I switch to H2H after I've capped G.Axe and Axe.

Nin50/Mnk25 can use Raging Fists. I don't know about Katana Weapon Skills, but I suspect the Nin scenario is similar to War? Is there a window of time where Raging Fists is the most damaging move a Nin has?

Even if Damage Dealing Nin/Mnk has a small window of use in EXP PTs (50 to ???), Raging Fists + Focus + Dodge could still make be a good Ballista 50 option.

[Matkun]

Ninjas actually have an E rating in Hand-to-Hand.

So at level 50Nin/25 MNK

we have:

153 Katana skill
126 Hand to Hand skill

That's a 27 difference in skill, which means you get:
-27 Attack
-27 Acc

compared to using a Katana when you use a H2H

I don't think you would hit anything, even in Ballista with hand to hand..

Not to mention that by level 45, we get Dual Wield 3, which increases duel wield speed by 25%..

So, the question is would we at level 50, rather have -27 Acc, -27 Atk and Raging Fists?

or 25% haste with our Katanas. Blade:Retsu paralyze is awesome as well, and by level 50 we also get Blade:Chi, though I do not have experience with the damage from that.

EDIT: Also, forgot to mention, without provoke, you can't tank really, since there is no good way to get hate.

[laicram]

Yes, it's already known that a Nin w/Mnk sub cannot tank.

Your arguments make sense, but what we really need is someone who's at this level range and can see the difference.

War51 (pre-Rampage), I've tanked and farmed with H2H. I hold hate with Raging Fists better than any other weapon at this level. When I farm, I kill mobs faster w/H2H than with any other weapon, again due to Raging Fists.

Like War, a Nin will gain/lose things by making this choice. My direct experience has shown me that H2H IS a good damage dealing option from 46-54 for War. If I accepted cookie-cutter standards/logic, I would have never learned that.

If there are any Nin50s interested in trying this:
- Skillup H2H in G1 PTs
- Equip STR+. It effects H2H even more than standard weapons.
- Wrestler's Mantle to increase Martial Arts effect. (Somone on Ragnarok needs to sell these! I want one! =P)
- Cestus Belt or Swordbelt is OK.
- You need Mnk sub to access Raging Fists! (and to use Latent Effect Mnk items)

[Kiyosuki]

I personally wouldn't want to use hand to hand myself, because it completely wastes the Two Sword proficiencies that Ninja's get in favor of certain WS's and few martial arts additions. But thats just me.

[laicram]

Kiyotaru, I think you're missing the idea here. I'll try to rephrase it.

You've been following the whole Nin/Rng threads here... at one point it was said that there was a "lvl range" in which Nin/Rng could do Exellent Damage (28-33).

The same idea applies here. From Nin 50-???, it's "possible" that Nin/Mnk can do better melee damage with H2H than a Nin/War with dual Katana.

This idea is loosely based on my Exp with War/Mnk, where from lvl46-54, I do better damage with "D Skill" H2H than with my "A skill" Axe Weapons.

You would try Nin/Rng 28-33 if your DPS is at it's optimum... switching to Nin/Mnk during it's "sweet spot" is the same idea.

To attack my own idea, my Exp as War/Mnk do not mirror what a Nin loses when switching to Mnk sub - Berserk + Double Attack.

All I'm saying is no one can be right or wrong until someone tries it - like Spider-Dan's Nin/Rng logs ^^

[Kiyosuki]

Noo its not missing the point. I just personally wouldn't do it. If it was the only option out there than maybe. Its a flexible melee sub. But if /Rng were available and someone could afford it I think it would definitely beat it out.

I guess.....because Monks don't get that many Martial Arts bonuses yet, and Ninja's don't get that many good Katana's earlier on, if someone absolutely didn't want to use /War for some reason, and /Rng wasn't an option I suppose it has more merit than most other melee subs.

It'd probably be ok from Level 25-35 but beyond that I don't know.

I had a chance to try those Wind Katana's at lvl 25 that I didn't get to use when I was a low level Ninja, and duel wielding those can be actually surprisingly nice. . Throwing weapons are really useful at those levels using /War or /Rng. Since Dual Wield is slow as a turtle then, throwing doesn't disrupt its flow like later it seems, and they're quite a lot easier to land than 50 and on at those early levels. Mixing what Dual wield strikes you do get with throwing weapons I think garners much better dot than if it was done with Mnk. The WS's could be ok I guess. To me when I think of this though, I think of someone who doesn't want to spend money to use /War or /Rng, and I have a pretty strong philosophy that no one should play Ninja unless they really mean it, which means not being shy of spending a bit of cash and putting some time in.

I guess its..ok though.

[Malleus]

I'm all for experimenting, but I agree that /mnk just doesn't bring enough to the table. I have nvr really believed that nin/war were tanks, so I have spent some time lvlint w/more offensive mindset. Our static has a paladin, so they're good w/me not tanking.

However, that said, it seems to me that /war is still the kewlest /sub for nin.

Maybe nin/thf? That might be useful, though someone would want to break it down as /mnk has been done. nin/sam for tp? Just thinking aloud, i'm not for/against any of these, just trying to help move the convo along past the 'nin/war or nothing' idea (which most of us have shared at one point or another).