Is Blink the only Real option for a Ninja?

[ZQM]

Originally posted by csBahamut
If I remember correctly, wasn't PLD/WAR and WAR/MNK the two main tanking jobs before NINs proved their worth? If WARs could tank before, what prevents them from still being able to now? When leveling up my WAR to 37, I was always the tank as WAR/MNK. My brother plays WAR/MNK as his secondary job. Most of the time he ends up tanking. Same with another person in my LS who's a WAR/NIN. We haven't gotten past the 50+/60+ level range yet, but I'm pretty sure both would be still viable for most exp parties. HNMs on the other hand, those require specialized tanks like PLD and NIN.

Tanks main purpose isn't to ABOSRB damage, it's to NEGLECT it.

With a PLD, he uses his own cures to neglect the damage done to him.

With a NIN, he uses Utsusemi to not take any damage.

With a WAR/MNK, he uses a WHM to cure him. This adds hate to the WHM that wouldn't be there for the PLD or NIN class. And we get hit way too hard, and it's too much cure for a WHM. A WAR/MNk cannot tank efficently past 60. A WARs VIT and DEF are just too low.

[Macht]

Originally posted by Gryff
Sorry but you basically copied and pasted the contents of

http://www.illuminatedlantern.com/ci...res/ninja.html

Thats what I was referring to.

You can find information supporting many "purposes" of ninjas, whatever you want to fit your own concepts in fact.

Well that is better, the website is intresting it has more then I knew though. What I knew was from a Discovery Channel show, were they went into the history about the Ninja. They had an actual person who's family bloodline carried on the traditions of a Ninja. That knowledge he passed on to a select few that he trained personally.

He had like 3-5 students only that he accepted to train (Really no one was refused just he set a number that he'd train at a time and as long as he wasn't at that number he'd train anyone). That was were I got what I knew. Same as a good bit of the knowledge I have about Samurai also came from a show on Discovery giving info about it's history. >.>

Though I now have some more insite on possibly were the idea of some creatures intestines continuing to attack a person after the creatures been cut open. The thing I didn't see on that site though was any mention about Mikkyo. It seems almost religious in what you do for it but it wasn't a religion, it was suppose to grant them power.

Anyway I see why you said that now, that defused my anger. Thank you for the follow through.

[csBahamut]

Tanks main purpose isn't to ABOSRB damage, it's to NEGLECT it.

I'm pretty sure that a tank's job is to keep the monster attacking him. Taking less damage helps in that the tank stays alive long enough for the enemy to be dispached. PLD cures are used more for hate control than actually healing like a WHM would. Why do you think WAR/MNK tanked before Zilarat? If it was all about damage mitigation, why aren't they any RDM/WAR tanks using phalanx, blink, and stoneskin?

WAR/MNK tanks just got forgotten in the battle between PLDs and NINs.

Ability to hold hate, and damage mitigation are the two things that make or break a good tank.

Nothing wrong with cure spamming if it doesn't steal hate, and the same MP is used by the end of each battle(faster death with more MP used).

[Macht]

Originally posted by little ninja
macht you are correct in alot fo what you have said about the ninja. and its sad to see soemone come in an do a lame ass one rip sentence..

the ninja was a master of invisiblity. thus why tonka fits in with play still. but why not make a attack like s.a/t.a while using it.. while thf has the hide ability. ninja an what a ninja stands for is not taken into play.. also this can be said for blink tanking. the ninja were well known to confuse a sam in the feild of battle. awkward stances, holding the angle of the blade in such a way that the sam thaught it to be a regular sam katana.. thus the sams first attack would miss, causing the ninja to be able to strike fast an deadly.


ninja were also very deadly with the shuriken. thus why they get an A+ in throwing. but i yet to see S.E take that into consideration. there is no thwoing weapon skill, otherwise rng would lose there job spots to a ninja.


this part is not to disrepect any pld, an this is not all pld. just some that i have encountered.. but most are just pricks. alot of them became pld. so they can get to endgame fast, an nothing else. they have no cost per lvl of play. they get the refreshs with the mages, while drks always got jack crap. the only food they consume is fishkabobs, an when they rn out of mp. its ok for them to heal. but jobs like drk have to stand there an save tp.. pld are the little brother of the pt's. dont upset them or they leave. they die you have to sit there for the rest of the pt hearing how they died, an would have been with this much exp..


i like many others dont know what S.E will do with the ninja. but the ninja is incomplete like the drgs are. yet S.E still targets on pld. an trust me, we all know there is little wrong with the job.
will they give us a san line of spells? will we see throwing weapon skills, new job traits or abilities.. who knows ??

Well the reason they don't do a sneak attack and trick attack like quality to a ninja, is even though they are known for stealth and such they still followed a code like the bushido. It's called something like Ninpo or something, anyway to me it seems so close to the Bushido since it was based mostly from it. Part of the code is to not strike a person when they are down or asleep (Which is why when they did their scare tactics they never went with any intent to kill anyone).

The tactics to create illusions to a Samurai may of seemed cowardice and such, but the Ninja saw it as tactical advantages small cracks in the code of bushido to be exploited in a way.

With WSs of throwing items I guess that could be implemented. I'm not sure though the items themselves do quite good damage for the delay, to make WSs giving them more off the RNGs field would seem a bit overpowering. It would be not only can they deal damage close to that of a RNG or better but they can also avoid many number of hits too, granted that a RNG/NIN could do that to a degree but that two jobs being used to achieve that not one.

EDIT:

What I could see occuring that they could implement with the Utsusemi: San would be that you get a critical bonus for each hit you succeed to do after the monster misses you from your shadows. That does seem to fit the Ninjas style perfectly.

That idea I just though of by little ninja's added info on the Ninja's tactics of using illusions to position themselves into a stricking position that would deal a great amount of damage.

[Kiyosuki]

Real Ninja's had a very strange code of honor. They weren't above poisoning or killing a sleeping enemy sometimes.. It could also depend on the sect, clan, or group the Ninja comes from ,or even sometimes the individual himself.

I personally think of Ninja's more as a type of Warrior, who could use stealth if they needed to, rather than full blown shadow assassins. (Which..certain types in middle eastern countires developed to FAR deadlier, and more straightforward ways then them)Ninja's would often try to attack unexpectedly often, but often times there would come a time where a Ninja would have no choice but to fight head on. Sometimes a Samurai on the same side would need someone to help him if he were surrounded, or if they're protectorate needed a bodyguard he'd be there, or maybe even in a full scale battle Ninja's could use they're niche.
Thing is, if the enemy's seen you and knows your there, backstabbing isn't very easy to do anymore. So as well as practicing silence and stealthy killing, Ninja's produced they're own form of full frontal combat that utilized they're own unique blend of fighting skills, leg movements, and confusion tactics incase of this. The main philosophy was knowing how to exploit any weakness, and finish the fight as quickly as possible.

Pretty similar to what little ninja said, but like the Samurai every person tended to develop they're own personal style. Some Ninja concentrated mostly on sword techniques and even Samurai esque dueling, while others specialized purely in throwing weapons of all sorts. Pretty much any kind of warrior you could think of could adapt they're style to the Ninja way. Thats what Ninpo is, its a similar concept to Jeet Kun Do. You can take any style of doing things, and apply it to the rules of Ninjutsu so it becomes Ninja like.

Ninja's were so far ahead of they're time..

If you think about it, its one of the few ancient warriors thats survived to the current age in full use. Knights, boat Pirates, Samurai and the like you don't tend to see a whole lot of anymore generally, (although they're respective philosophies can still be used..)
But if you look at soldier's that specialize in Covert operations like Navy Seals, CIA, Brittish Ranger's and the like (hey...even Terrorism in a way.) Most of them have taken many influences from Ninja's style (Although I can't say they're all Ninja's. Just influenced.). Smoke Screen's, unusual maneuvers that are designed to take out enemies as quickly as possible, and confuse. Wide variety of tools, stealth and cunning over loudness. They're style was really influential on modern combat if you really think about it. In a way, all of today's modern warrior's are Ranger's, Thieves, Ninja's, and Alchemist's.(And maybe Monks.) But if you just think about any type of warrior using these incredibly sophisticated methods..during as low as the tenth century during times of horseback riding and throwing big rocks, its pretty remarkable.

I'm going off topic, but anyways. The thing is, is that people seem to think that the stealthy backstabbing is what makes Ninja's what they are, they're claim to fame so to speak. But its really not. Both them and they're reputation don't really rely on the backstabbing image. Its much more these fantastic images of these Warriors who use almost fox like trickery, strategy and cunning, but fight with fast and furious styles that are both exotic and facinating.

The rest way to look at it were Ninja's were cunning Warriors, who could rely on stealth if they needed to, rather than Warriors who depended on it. I think its best this way. The Thieves, or the "cut throats" of Vanadiel are the ones that rely on that stealthy backstabbing. Ninja's could do it if they want..but what individually makes them unique is they're exotic techniques and deadly and agile fighting style.

As long as a Ninja has these, and the cool little hand poses, its a Ninja. They can fight straight forwardly with speed like Shinobi style, or Ninja Gaiden in some games, or fight totally stealthy like in Tenchu and as long as it has the basic formula, its a ninja. Thats why blink tanking never bothered me as much as it seems to do to some others, I think its perfectly Ninja like the way it is.

Hey...Solid Snake used stealth to acomplish his missions, but sometimes he still had to fight the straight forward fight in his own unique way. Thats the best way I think to describe this whole thing with "Ninja's should only be backstabbers!" Because if someone thinks this, they don't know Ninja's imo. The assassination aspect is way overblown, but Ninja's were incredibly effective in they're element. So use your imagination when thinking of ninja tanks. Think of...Hotsuma dodging like crazy while swiping at the same time, so the others who arn't nearly as fast can attack. XD

[csBahamut]

Sounds like NINs were masters of taking advantage of an enemy's weaknesses(or enhancing their own strenghts). Maybe a passive ability that would increase a NIN's chance to critical hit would work? +5% at level 25, +10% at level 50, +15% at level 75? Doesn't sound to powerful to me. Would help those THF/NIN, WAR/NIN, and even RNG/NIN be a bit stronger too.

[ZQM]

Originally posted by csBahamut
I'm pretty sure that a tank's job is to keep the monster attacking him.

Just about any job can keep the monster attacking them. Keeping hate is something a tank needs to do, but not what is needed to be a tank. In that case, a DRK/WAR with souleater on is a viable tank? A RNG/WAR that does Sidewinder > Barrage > Sidewinder?

PLD cures are used more for hate control than actually healing like a WHM would.

Yes, the cures are used for hate. But with it, they're able to neglect the damage they get without the hate being elsewhere (i.e. the WHM). This is personally why I hate PLD + WHM parties, I'd much rather have a PLD + SMN or RDM. In this case, the mage buffs/debuffs, leaving the PLD to be the main healer with the SMN/RDM being backups. By neglecting their own damage, the tanks are able to keep more hate. Keeping hate != neglecting damage, but neglecting damage == hate. By doing this, down time is minimal, and more EXP per hour.

Why do you think WAR/MNK tanked before Zilarat?

Because the mobs before Zilart weren't hard. How do you think a WAR/MNK tanked post 60 when there was no post 60?

If it was all about damage mitigation, why aren't they any RDM/WAR tanks using phalanx, blink, and stoneskin?

Because a RDM/WAR's buffs would wear in the first couple of hits on an IT mob, and considering the cast time it'd be pretty hard to keep it going.

Nothing wrong with cure spamming if it doesn't steal hate, and the same MP is used by the end of each battle(faster death with more MP used).

A WAR/MNK is going to require a hell of a lot more MP then a PLD will. Not only will the PLD be curing himself, saving the WHM MP, but he will also be taking noticable amount of damage less then the WAR. A PLD not curing himself is going to be cured less then a WAR will. And spamming cures IS going to steal hate. Boost is allmighty in lower levels, but doesn't mean much later. A level 5 ability just can't keep up with all of the new spells and abilities that other classes get. Also, a WAR/MNKs damage is going to be pretty bad. In order to get DEF near a PLDs DEF, he would need to eat Fish Kabobs, use full defensive gear, and use defender. And that still means nothing, because WARs have shitty VIT. Even NINs have better VIT then WAR.

I don't mean this in a "I'm higher level then you and know more", please do not take it that way. However, you have not fought the mobs past 60 yet. You are in no position to argue just how hard they hit. Trust me, it's just too much when you're getting pounded on for 150 by a stupid Spider.

[Kiyosuki]

Ninja's most successful functions that they did in they're own unique way were Seige missions, Bodyguard missions, Investigation (which they did often during the turning of the Meiji era), and skirmishes (especially in difficult terrain like forests) picking off poor lone soldiers during a big raid or battle.

They're assassination missions were actually not one of they're most..successful exploits.

But like Samurai, the Paladin's, and Wizards etc, the hardcore realistic facts are really not quite applicable to this game. XD Its all about the more mythic qualities here. Although even there, Ninja's were more or less a cunning and skill type of warrior more than a full blown assassin often. (Don't get me started on the fictitious stories about Ninja's escapades in bed please.. :p )


The "fake list" that came from that Japanese website listed a new Ninjutsu called "Smoke Screen" or "Smoke Bomb", whatever you perfer, but it would of been a self spell like Tonko or Utsusemi, and while its duration lasted a Ninja's critical hit rate and evasion rate would increase. I think that would of been the most sensible and stable addition to give Ninja's if anything new came.

If Ninja's needed any job trait..its some kind of multi hit trait like Double or Tripple attack, to take full advantage of DW to make Ninja's the true master's of Double Sword wielding. I've gone too far off topic as it is though. Its almost here...we'll see then. Squaresoft's style of using Ninja's has always been about the Two Sword ability to double your offense while keeping speed, with powerful Ninjutsu's abilities with effects as icing on the cake, so we have to think they'll keep it along those lines. Like FFT, FFTA, Hawkeye, and FF5's Ninja. Its all about speed and hit count with Ninja's in Square games.

[little ninja]

kiyosuki your not really going off topic. but when you hear about what improvements S.E is making towards a plds magic list, an abilities. an you hear that they might nerf the nin's blinks. i cant help but wonder what S.E is up too. i just think its crumy to look at are job abilities an traits, an realize they almost all come from our subs.. but yeah the countdown is on.
:confused:

[shwiggy]

The devs played too much ninja gaiden. When you were invincible you were just a bunch of shadows ;p

[csBahamut]

Just about any job can keep the monster attacking them. Keeping hate is something a tank needs to do, but not what is needed to be a tank. In that case, a DRK/WAR with souleater on is a viable tank? A RNG/WAR that does Sidewinder > Barrage > Sidewinder?

If the enemy is killed fast enough, then the DRK/WAR or RNG/WAR did tank the mob.

Yes, the cures are used for hate. But with it, they're able to neglect the damage they get without the hate being elsewhere (i.e. the WHM). This is personally why I hate PLD + WHM parties, I'd much rather have a PLD + SMN or RDM. In this case, the mage buffs/debuffs, leaving the PLD to be the main healer with the SMN/RDM being backups. By neglecting their own damage, the tanks are able to keep more hate. Keeping hate != neglecting damage, but neglecting damage == hate. By doing this, down time is minimal, and more EXP per hour.

It really comes down to how much MP the party uses. If the PLD didn't cure himself at all, and wasn't needed to hold hate, the WHM would have to be spending the same amount of MP to cure the PLD. That's why people like NIN tanks so much. The party as a whole has to spend less MP on healing. The less MP that needs to be spent in a battle, the sooner they can start attacking another monster.

Because the mobs before Zilart weren't hard. How do you think a WAR/MNK tanked post 60 when there was no post 60?

True, but it also makes me wonder how much experimentation people really did, or if they just gave up because the WAR/MNK took too much damage per hit. I actually like tanking mobs that hit harder. They tend to die faster, and the battles are more exciting.

I think we differ in how we veiw a tank. I use a more general view, and you seem to be more specific to exp or HNM optimization.

I see a tank as anything that keeps the attention of the enemy long enough for its support to take care of the enemy. Whether or not the tank survives has no effect on the support being able to kill the enemy. If the tank couldn't survive long enough, and its support would take losses, then the tank failed in its mission. That's where durability, or damage mitigation, comes into play. The tank NEEDS to be able to survive to perform its role. Being able to take punishment is useless if the tank's support is being attacked instead (In relation to FFXI then, that's why PLD/MNK doesn't work very well as a tank).

Now if the tank can survive for multiple encounters, and still keep its support from taking losses, it becomes more efficient. Being efficient isn't always needed. If a tank were to be killed/destroyed at the end of a battle, it would have no effect on what happened during the battle. Reason being, the Second Law of Thermodynamics. Basically, what happens in the future cannot affect the past.

Now, if we add in that the support would have to survive a series of battles in rapid succession, things only change a little. A tank could be able to survive all the battles, or a series of multiple tanks could be use(like one each battle). Either way, the tank is still doing its job of protecting its support.

Applying these ideas to MMORPGs, FFXI specifically, we can see that the same ideas apply. What comes into play in MMORPGs is efficiency. People want to gain exp/kill hard bosses. Hard bosses are like one time fights, so it doesn't matter if the tank survives the fight, as long as everyone else doesn't die. If the tank doesn't die, then it's just an added bonous to that player. Either way, the boss was still defeated(which was the goal). For gaining something like exp for raising levels, efficiency comes into play with the players' desire to obtain exp/levels as fast and as easy as possible. When a tank can survive multiple battles, then exp is gained at a faster rate than if the tank could only survive one battle. Either way, the tank is still doing its job of protecting its support. Being more effiecient is just a bonous that defines how desired a tank is.

A RNG/WAR or DRK/WAR may be able to survive for one battle and earn exp, but the rate of exp/levels gained is MUCH slower than desired, and slower than if a PLD/WAR or NIN/WAR was tanking. A RNG/WAR or DRK/WAR could tank, but because of players' wants, a PLD/WAR or NIN/WAR is preferred. I hope this explains a little better as to what I was trying say.

I don't mean this in a "I'm higher level then you and know more", please do not take it that way. However, you have not fought the mobs past 60 yet. You are in no position to argue just how hard they hit. Trust me, it's just too much when you're getting pounded on for 150 by a stupid Spider.

Yes, you are higher level, and I know you've experienced more, but I always take any bit of information I learn with a grain of salt. People are always going around proving things wrong. I believe that players have not experimented enough with FFXI yet to know everything that is actually viable. No matter how much one person knows, they know absolutely nothing in the grand scale of things and can always learn something new.

[Mitsu]

I have one thing to say.


THROW WS prz..PlZ....After reaching my goal of makin my own fumas and seeing the damage that I do with throw I get depressed knowing that S-E does not give us ninja (who actually developed throw skill)n a chance to take full advantage of it. Some say that throw ws will steal spot away from rng....WRONG its just another Rng DD job. Did Nin steal tanking from pld NUO >.>. From looking on this forum and talkin to people in game I have come to conclusion that the only NIN that dont want Throw Ws are the ones that have like 90 skill in throw at lvl 65 or those that dont even own a chakram >< FYI...not owning a chakram or boomy as ninja is just plain SAD -.-

[little ninja]

i started thowing at lvl 20 in quifim. if i was puller i used the platoon chakram, an when i tanked i used the lvl 18 shurikens. its part of being a ninja besides using utes, an other ninja powders.. theres nothing like binding a mob an unloading the chakram, or shurikens at a mob...

[VionZhaoyun]

As long as I'm not gimped.I dun't know what but it does seem they wish to bring us ninjas down some while bringing up the Plds but let's hope they have something good for us in CoP...
And as for blink tanking is the 20/20 vision of a Ninja,I didn't blink tank 1/2 of my ninja career. I was throwing Nin/thf a hand.well i atleast got my SA with a critical with each blow and used a ws behind it,but in even out with war is stronger flat out.
Trust me when you pimp a out Nin can take on a VT soloing with blink 1&2(uts) you know something is up.

But I still use /thf more offen.Because my war is one of my least usable jobs.I may go war/nin..when my Nin gets a little higher.Guess you guys will still see my as my Nin/Thf out in Fenrir ;D
anyhow.When someone /sea all ninja you will see that just about 99% percent of the time you see NIN/WAR.a couple of NIN/thfs prolly farming or lvling but hey it's all how you make the best out of your gamming enjoyment.
Try using a Zena throwing thingy,your throwing skills could act as a mini voke which can sace you some gil in the long run....I just run out so fast X.x I guess i love to kill stuff then huh?



BladeRunner 1

[ZQM]

Originally posted by csBahamut
It really comes down to how much MP the party uses. If the PLD didn't cure himself at all, and wasn't needed to hold hate, the WHM would have to be spending the same amount of MP to cure the PLD. That's why people like NIN tanks so much. The party as a whole has to spend less MP on healing. The less MP that needs to be spent in a battle, the sooner they can start attacking another monster.

In this part you agree with me that WAR/NIN > WAR/MNK post 60. I only get hit a couple times a fight, which is a lot less curing then a WAR/MNK and I do more damage because I go full STR/ATK gear where are a /MNK has to do DEF/VIT gear.

I see a tank as anything that keeps the attention of the enemy long enough for its support to take care of the enemy. Whether or not the tank survives has no effect on the support being able to kill the enemy. If the tank couldn't survive long enough, and its support would take losses, then the tank failed in its mission. That's where durability, or damage mitigation, comes into play. The tank NEEDS to be able to survive to perform its role. Being able to take punishment is useless if the tank's support is being attacked instead (In relation to FFXI then, that's why PLD/MNK doesn't work very well as a tank).

Actually, that was the point I was trying to make. Because a PLD and a NIN can migrate their damage, none of their supports DO get hit. However, with a WAR/MNK, all the hate goes to the WHM instead of the /MNK. This ends up in the WHM getting hit.

Being more effiecient is just a bonous that defines how desired a tank is.

A RNG/WAR or DRK/WAR may be able to survive for one battle and earn exp, but the rate of exp/levels gained is MUCH slower than desired, and slower than if a PLD/WAR or NIN/WAR was tanking. A RNG/WAR or DRK/WAR could tank, but because of players' wants, a PLD/WAR or NIN/WAR is preferred. I hope this explains a little better as to what I was trying say.

I didn't mean /MNK can't tank at all, but with a simple subjob change he becomes that much more efficent. A WAR/NIN is basically a ninja with better damage and no support ninjutsu. A WAR/MNK is basically a PLD with less vit and no MP.