So the almighty "Blink Tank" has fallen....kinda

[neighbortaru]

yeah, I think all the negativity/criticism comes from people not wanting to blink tank. whether it's because: 1) they think it's too expensive -- in which case a DD nin is just as expensive if not more -- or 2) they love the AF but hate to tank.

[stray]

The one thing that scares me in this is that, being a Thief, I remember when S-E killed yokodama. At the time I was just a piddly noob just learning how to stack Sneak Attack and Fast Blade, so I never really felt the difference, but the class' role and definition changed very much so over that.

Thieves still control hate but not in the way they could at one time. Hide SAnTA is a nice step towards allowing thf to do what they once could, but even that took... 8 months?

I tend to agree with the speculation that this will affect physical AOE's only really. Most of which aren't XP mobs to begin with. But there's a part of me that can't stop worrying...

[Roldarin]

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
But post-60 THFs are dead... (well, post-66)

Originally posted by kisada
Wrong.

If anything its very difficult to get from 60-65 as THF. Normally I think you make good arguments but the more bogus claims and bullshit you post, the less credible you become.

Very difficult, dead... what's the difference?

I've seen numerous thieves(including 4 in my linkshell) quitting thief between 56 and 66 because of lack of invites. And being told by other people that DRK/THF works well enough that thief isn't as necessary. Is Spider-Dan exaggerating? Perhaps. Is he 100% wrong? Not for the 100% of the thieves that I know personally.

[imac2much]

Originally posted by stray
[B]The one thing that scares me in this is that, being a Thief, I remember when S-E killed yokodama. At the time I was just a piddly noob just learning how to stack Sneak Attack and Fast Blade, so I never really felt the difference, but the class' role and definition changed very much so over that.

Thieves still control hate but not in the way they could at one time. Hide SAnTA is a nice step towards allowing thf to do what they once could, but even that took... 8 months?

FYI, the *hate control* function of SATA isn't in question here. It's still incredibly useful. DRK/THF was "nerfed" just as much as THF main with the yokodama nerf .... i.e. not much.

This thread isn't about THF really, but the small tangent that does concern THF is the debate between THF and DRK/THF post 66 when DRK/THF gets SATA Spinning Slash. Whether yokodama worked or not wouldn't change any of the arguments that have been made... it affects both parties.

Yokodama nerf wasn't even much of a nerf. It's not like yokodama was used from day one. Most people didn't know about it so the regular fuidama patterns of today were used. Today THF and /THF are used fine to control hate; it just takes a bit more coordination within the party than before when the yokodama glitch existed (after all, it was indeed a glitch). In other words, I don't see how the THF's role and definition was changed at all.

[JayblahX]

For the sake of people trying to achieve 75...

I sincerely hope that this change is;
(a) not as drastic as we are being led to believe.
(b) allows for the introduction of a new tool to help counter the effects of the change in some way.

Speaking as a Monk who made 98% of his parties all the way up to 75, losing NINs as a serviceable tank is absurd. People who bash NINs are either clueless noobs, spiteful PLDs or the moral-police ("ohnoez Blink-Tanking was an unintended exploit!!!11").

I would probably be only halfway to 75 now if I was forced to stick my thumb up my ass and wait for a PLD who; wasn't in a static, wasn't a jerkoff, or was willing to EXP with a pre-60 MNK (an undesirable job). To go through that grind again with PLD being the only desirable tank option would be dreadful if this change is as severe as it seems.

[specialk]

Originally posted by Roldarin
Very difficult, dead... what's the difference?

I've seen numerous thieves(including 4 in my linkshell) quitting thief between 56 and 66 because of lack of invites. And being told by other people that DRK/THF works well enough that thief isn't as necessary. Is Spider-Dan exaggerating? Perhaps. Is he 100% wrong? Not for the 100% of the thieves that I know personally. [/B]

everybody has "a drg or thf in my LS" who has quit their job. well, i know several who continue to play it at end-game lvls. they don't seem to have a problem with it.

so many crap posts in this thread (not directed at Roldarin) do nothing but perpetuate the "best dmg dealer/omgwtflol job got nerfed" bullshit. sad how many ppl still have such a crap understanding of this game

[Naota1369]

i agree with jayblah, i really hope that we dont lose one of the sorely needed tank classes. this will in effect make war/nins cruddy to kind of.... at least tanking wise

[Macht]

Originally posted by Naota1369
i agree with jayblah, i really hope that we dont lose one of the sorely needed tank classes. this will in effect make war/nins cruddy to kind of.... at least tanking wise

I'm not really convinced that it'll make NIN impossible to tank. It will make them a bit more down to earth, I've watched many NINs juggle between Ichi and Ni to see that it's way to powerful. Even a RNG spending all that money they do for their arrows doesn't grant them an insaine power like that.

The only things that give a RNG it's great power is it's WSs, Barrage, and Eagle Eye Shot. All those were built that way and it's power is in a forced control by the recast timer. Which we might be able to break threw one if that Refersher item is available or made more available to use, if that does occur then a change to RNG might be needed (Still unlikely if the only timer reset with that refresher is the 2hr, especially since this would benefit every job as well).

Point is though I'm saying is that a RNG spending tons of money couldn't solo stuff like a NIN could. They may be able to solo 1 monster like a NIN but that costs them a long time before they can accomplish that again. For a NIN though it costs them nearly no time to do again. Both jobs spend money for power but it's still obvious that NINs power is beyond the RNGs with Utsusemi.

So with this change occuring to Utsusemi maybe it'll equal them more out to the similar potentials that a RNG has (Not in damage they deal but the capablities they each have with the money for the items they buy to do so).

[Xien]

Originally posted by Macht
I'm not really convinced that it'll make NIN impossible to tank. It will make them a bit more down to earth, I've watched many NINs juggle between Ichi and Ni to see that it's way to powerful. Even a RNG spending all that money they do for their arrows doesn't grant them an insaine power like that.

The only things that give a RNG it's great power is it's WSs, Barrage, and Eagle Eye Shot. All those were built that way and it's power is in a forced control by the recast timer. Which we might be able to break threw one if that Refersher item is available or made more available to use, if that does occur then a change to RNG might be needed (Still unlikely if the only timer reset with that refresher is the 2hr, especially since this would benefit every job as well).

Point is though I'm saying is that a RNG spending tons of money couldn't solo stuff like a NIN could. They may be able to solo 1 monster like a NIN but that costs them a long time before they can accomplish that again. For a NIN though it costs them nearly no time to do again. Both jobs spend money for power but it's still obvious that NINs power is beyond the RNGs with Utsusemi.

So with this change occuring to Utsusemi maybe it'll equal them more out to the similar potentials that a RNG has (Not in damage they deal but the capablities they each have with the money for the items they buy to do so).

Talking about NIN being able to solo tough mobs isn't the issue I think. No one soloes XP mobs for XP...they do it for the challenge. It's difficult enough for a 6 member PT to get chain 5's constantly...how many chains do you think you can get with a 1 member PT? If you think it's unfair that Nin can solo but Rng can't with the same amount of money being thrown out, please look to RDMs. They can solo tough mobs for free. Think they should be nerfed?

Also,
Unless you're going cheap with NIN and just spamming utsu or a RNG that's spamming silver bullets.... NIN > Rng in expenses up till at least 56.

A typicla ranger might bring 15 (I'm guessing) stacks of arrows to a typical PT.... my cost in Shihei alone is almost a third of that. Not to mention other powders (namely, paralyze, slow, and katon which costs 10k++ per stack on my server ><). On a high IT monster, I can circle the elemental wheel 3-4 times.

You don't keep hate well without using the other powders.

And until you've played NIN, please don't say they're overpowered. I think once people play NIN and fight high IT mobs and Kurayami/Hojo/Jubaku doesn't stick, they realize that NIN tanks are quite down to earth. A good NIN tank isn't just about juggling Ichi and Ni. It requires a good player (observant, fast reactions), good equipment (balance evasion/atk/def to hold hate), plenty of money (to spam powders), knowledgable PT members, and last but not least : some luck to help you out (mob missing you as you cast Ichi).

Against crawlers at 56 in Boyahda Tree, it takes 4.5 hits from the crawler to kill me. There's a lot less room for mistakes with NIN tanks.

Xien

[Kiyosuki]

I just don't see how Ninja's are overpowered. Ninja has high potential, but like most speedy characters in any game they can get knocked off balance if they're not careful and suffer greatly for it. If going on Pld vs Nin, its like a Helicopter vs a Fighter Jet. Helicopter's are much more stable and are extremely reliable and solid air support, but they don't have the same kind of hit and strike power and sheer uncatchable speed a jet has. Fighter Jets are much faster and harder to see coming, as well as far deadlier, but since they go so fast the pilot's gotta be very skillful or else he can end it all relatively easilly, and arn't as friendly ground wise.

Its the same thing with Ninja's. Its all about speed speed speed, but like anything that uses speed as its main priority, you really have to use that speed or else your in trouble.

It seems a fair check and balance system to me, up to now anyways.

[Ozymandis]

Originally posted by Naota1369
i agree with jayblah, i really hope that we dont lose one of the sorely needed tank classes. this will in effect make war/nins cruddy to kind of.... at least tanking wise

I said it before in the thread- this doesn't affect us much pre-74.

Most WAR/NINs versus most mobs are using Utsusemi during the hate-setting period almost-exclusively. The sub is for improved damage, and once 48 rolls around, impressive accuracy even while tanking.

[Archain]

You'll be happy to know that it seems to only have an effect with the Physical AOEs




The effectiveness of the ninjutsu "Utsusemi" now relies on the type of attack that is being used on the caster. When attacked, the following five outcomes can occur:

Caster evades attack and one "copy image" is lost.
This normally occurs when the caster is hit with a single physical or magical attack.

The number of lost copy images varies.
This normally occurs when the caster is hit with an area attack such as Whirl of Rage. The number of copy images lost (and extra damage taken) is calculated by taking into account the potency of the attack as well as the caster's current ninjutsu skill level.

All copy images are lost and the caster takes damage.
This normally occurs when the caster is hit with an area attack spell such as Firega.

The caster takes damage without losing any of his/her copy images.
This normally occurs when the caster is hit with breath, or self-destruct type attacks.

The caster is enfeebled without losing any of his/her copy images.
This normally occurs when the caster is hit with an enfeebling spell that does not inflict damage, such as Silence.
All enemy attacks fall into one of the above categories.
The copy images created by the spells Blink and Aerial Armor can also be removed in the same manner as that explained under "the number of lost copy images varies" (above).


Source PlayOnline
http://www.playonline.com/updateus/040914gs7tr3.html

I do have an issue with the last statement made, I don't know if it's 100% accurate. If what is written there is indeed the case, spells like Silence, Flash, Blind, Gravity, and Slow can pass through Utsusemi instead of being absorbed by it. That may be a misprint or a new attack style, I'd like to think that those type of attacks were still absorbed, if not then we'll have to watch ourselves when it comes to debuffs.

[Bigbird]

NINJA HATERS = OWNED

[Spider-Dan]

Well, it looks like this might be aimed squarely at /NIN, which is fine (and probably needed). Being able to be enfeebled through shadows kind of sucks, but isn't anything major.

The only question I have is whether the choice of Whirl of Rage as an example means that that part applies to "physical"-type AOE only. For example, in the unblinkable section, they mention breath and self-destruct attacks (we'll assume gob bombs are classified as self-destruct). But Cursed Sphere and Bubble Shower (for example) are neither breath nor self-destruct. So does that mean that they will be in the class of "depends on ninjutsu skill"?

[Ozymandis]

Originally posted by Bigbird
NINJA HATERS = OWNED

Well, PLD did get the improvement to Cover. People who prefer PLDs are going to be happy about that. That's one of their best abilities over NIN.


Also, enfeebles going through Blink isn't really good. It was a rare situation but Blink used to stop certain single-target enfeebling spells.