So the almighty "Blink Tank" has fallen....kinda

[kisada]

I don't think you even know what I'm referring to, which is bizarre, considering that you're a DRK. THF/x can still close chains better than DRK/THF from 60-64 (closing Distortion with SATADE is better than closing Induration with SATAGuillotine, or any other option DRK has), but once DRK gets Spinslash, THF is just obsolete. It's not that THF is BAD (obviously you can still do well with a THF in party), it's just that DRK/THF is simply better. I'm sure there are 3249873987 threads in both the DRK and THF forums detailing why.

lol you're telling me this? Funny.

My point was that THF isn't "dead" like you claim it to be. They are still useful and effective past 60, and even moreso post 66. Your claim that THF is obsolete is bogus and bullshit. One job being better than another doesn't make the lesser one "obsolete."

Sorry, but you vastly overstate the complexity of blink tanking. Any job in this game can be played to perfection by a 12-year-old. The game is not brain surgery. I doubt that anyone posting in this thread honestly believes that playing FFXI is mentally taxing; the "most complex" jobs are simply those that prevent you from making a meal while playing them.

Nah, I don't. Obviously the game isn't brain surgery. Neither should it be mentally taxing. But it does require a higher amount of skill to play certain jobs to their fullest potential, NIN in particular. You may understand the concepts of blink tanking but until you play it yourself and play it WELL, you cannot fully comprehend what it is like. Personally I've been enjoying NIN more than I had been enjoying DRK in a long time, and that is because it required skillfull play on my part to make it extremely effective. It is a totally different game having to juggle provoke, which ninjutsu debuffs I need to use, which ones were resisted, which ones are fading, which elemental debuffs I need to use, which elemental debuff of the chain I need to start off on, how to time them so I've debuffed EXACTLY to the point where I'm going to magic burst, how to time them so I have exactly enough hate, and having to recast shadows as necessary.

While DRG + TP + WS is relatively easy to understand, there is no such thing as ninja in a nutshell. Writing blink tanking off as something so simple really is naive, as imac2much says.

[Xien]

I agree that NIN tanking is no easy job. But seriously, how can some Nin/War tanks not see that (in the worse case) this nerf will seriously hurt blink tanking? If the nerf is applied only to physical AOE (Such as Yagudo mass stun) it's not much of a problem. In fact, I'd find it interesting. But if it applies to things such as Crawler AOE poison, and Darter AOE cursed sphere... we're going to be in a whole world of pain.

Typically, after I've cast Ichi, my Ni timer is around 17 seconds. Imagine casting Ichi and then an AOE takes all the shadows out. That's 17 seconds you're vulnerable after a high damage attack. With stuff that double attacks (ie. crawlers/darters/lotsofotherstuff), this can get ugly really quick. With capped Evasion equipment, Robber Crabs in kuftal hit me 150 a pop. That number will likely go higher as the mobs get tougher.

A point I've seen in most forums asks us to max out Evasion equipment to counter this nerf. But relying on that isn't a solution IMO. You can see it even in the way you play. I have very close (-2 off) to maxed out evasion at my lvl. Now, if Evasion was dependable, no NIN would start casting Ichi on the last shadow of Ni would they? Granted, sometimes parry/dodge/whatever does kick in and you have to cancel it manually, but most NINs still cast Ichi during that time. Your chance to dodge is also (IMO, and my experiences) greatly affected by lvl. I remember tanking kuftal crabs at 52. I dodged almost NONE of the attacks. The bard gave me mambo+madrigal and I dodged maybe 1 out of 10 attacks. At 54 where they were still IT....I was a God with Kurayami on. This means no more fighting really IT stuff like before.

I also noticed that Dodge is helped out very much by Kurayami. Unfortunately, Kurayami is rather hard to stick on some mobs and dependent on elemental NIN skill. Again, this means less chances of the PT fighting high IT mobs.

Some have mentioned having BLMs/Drks/Whms that are good with stun/flash. I admit, having a BLM/Drk that can stun at the appropriate times IS very nice. But you don't always PT with them. Most NINs probably prefer to PT with a THF. And while nice to have, BLMs aren't necessary for a PT to work right now. Not to mention they might be in the middle of a cast when the AOE happens. Stun DOES have a rather long recast time as well. Some BLMs (go them!) already help me stun while I recast Ichi after an unlucky crawler dbl atk. What if the crawler decides to do AOE poison right after?

Points to ponder?

Xien

[csBahamut]

Typically, after I've cast Ichi, my Ni timer is around 17 seconds. Imagine casting Ichi and then an AOE takes all the shadows out. That's 17 seconds you're vulnerable after a high damage attack. With stuff that double attacks (ie. crawlers/darters/lotsofotherstuff), this can get ugly really quick. With capped Evasion equipment, Robber Crabs in kuftal hit me 150 a pop. That number will likely go higher as the mobs get tougher.

That's the big problem I have with NINs, if played right, they won't get hit. Being able to do decent damage AND not get hit makes NIN too powerful. I doubt taking a few hits will cause a problem once new party dynamics are worked out. And if double attacks cause a big problem, then NIN will just become a more specialized tank. Maybe this 'nerf', or what I would rather call 'de-godding', will force players to experiment with alternate leveling monsters than dumb crabs.

I would like to see NINs be a decent tank and damage dealer, like WARs. PLDs should hold the specialization in tanking and generally be the best in most situations, but WAR and NIN should also be viable options. I think adding throwing WS, an ability that would raise evasion but lower something else like attack or accuracy, and an ability that would raise attack speed, but lower evasion or defense would be perfect additions for the NIN job. The San line spells, and making the debuffs as strong as RDM ones(if not already) would help too.

As long as NINs aren't the 'can-never-be-hit-gods-that-can-tank-everything', I'm happy as a PLD. PLDs being the best tanks at everything is just an extra perk, but not needed.

[Kirk]

I for one am going to take this ninja *nerf* thing in stride. As Kiyo pointed out this could be a precurser for utsusemi -san. But even if not, I will tank irregardless. Why? because I just love ninja.

To me there are two types of ninja, 1st generation and 2nd generation.

1st generation ninjas are people who choose ninja as their adavnce job right from the start. They struggled to learn how to blink tank, raise money for scrolls and powder and toughed it out because they wanted a challenge or just wanted to be the best.

2nd generation ninja's are people who already made it to 75 with some other job and then took up ninja as a sub. Maybe they enjoyed it and wanted to take it farther. Of course for a 2nd generation ninja Gil probably isn't an issue, getting AF and the best gear isnt a problem due to high level friends/connections.

With a nerf like this 2nd generation ninjas are likely to just drop the class. But 1st generation ninja's will tough it out. Its no different then when you had to learn how to tank perydon's for the first time. Or coerls and cockatrices that silen and para you. Its just something else to learn and adjust to. And if you are a 1st generation ninja, you already know what perserverance is all about. Just another thing to make you an even better player.

As for me i'll be blink tanking until they remove utsusemi from the game. It can be done. We only have to find the new way how.

~Macey

[bunta]

/recast "Utsusemi: San" <me>

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by kisada
My point was that THF isn't "dead" like you claim it to be. They are still useful and effective past 60, and even moreso post 66. Your claim that THF is obsolete is bogus and bullshit. One job being better than another doesn't make the lesser one "obsolete."

You would think so, but ask any DRG that's been sitting in Jeuno for days LFP what his opinion is of that statement. A party can still do well with a DRG (as Madden attested), but nobody wants to invite a DRG, because RNG/MNK/DRK/SAM are just better. If any of those jobs are LFP along with DRG, the DRG will not get picked 90%+ of the time. And so it is with DRK/THF and THF (and we all know that there is an ENDLESS supply of DRKs). That's why I (and many others) have basically conceded that THF is currently obsolete post-66, in the practical sense.

To get this back on topic, suppose this nerf has the effect that any AOE strips all shadows. NIN will certainly no longer be considered as good of a tank as PLD; it would be ridiculous to hope so. Now, does that mean that NIN is now useless? Certainly not. But what it does mean is that there will be a large group of people who will refuse to leave Jeuno without anything but a PLD tank. Certainly, you've been in a party where the members said that a WAR tank would be unacceptable, and that PLD or NIN will be needed? Now, that same bias will be applied toward NIN.

It is exactly this bias that cripples DRG, and it will apply in full force to NIN if this nerf has the effect that the update wording indicates.

[Les]

(*' ')a

eeetooo....

better to just wait and see =P

[Biterman]

Originally posted by bunta
/recast "Utsusemi: San" <me>

Please do correct me if I am wrong, but I think that has been there for some months now. Same thing with other spells that are on the DB but not implemented like Meteor.

I do agree that a San line will help alot against this 'nerf', but you can still get unlucky and you will eat quite a lot more damage than a PLD. Yes, most likely less overall damage than a PLD over the course of the fight, but 2 big hits is all a mob needs to lose interest in you and start pwning that little taru BLM in the corner.

Its rather interesting to see how most of you NIN fail to see how this can change PT dynamics. If the BLM and/or DRK need to stun more they will get more enmity, use more mp(resulting in the RDM not being able to skip someone in their refresh cycle) and change their playing style to accomodate you. Surely, hate management involves six people, but when they need to start to go out of their way its more likely they will just choose the tried and true.

Put yourself in the shoes of the BLM/DRK for a second (and for some of you NIN, get rid of that huge ego). Now you BLM or the PT leader ask "PLD or NIN tank?". With the PLD you only need to use Stun on bomb gobs and big spells. With the NIN the previous plus now you have to keep an eye on the NIN. You need to pay attention now after/before any mob AOE and see if the NIN gets hit. Will you be comfortable to use a nuke knowing the NIN has no shadows up and just got hit for 150+ damage?
Who are you going to pick?
*points at Spider-Dan last post*

Oh yes, btw. Stun cost 25mp and has a recast timer of 45 seconds. Thats right, 15 more seconds that your Utsu spell. Really reliable huh?

[Naota1369]

The effect of the ninjutsu Utsusemi will be completely removed by area attacks.

it says AOE attacks. so nin's tanking mobs with AOE's is out of the question. i agree with spider dan, this looks like nins are totally F*cked now when it comes to tanking, i certainly wouldnt invite them to tank anymore after this, although i would for other positions. maybe they will be more melee DD focused now. but sorry as for blink tanking it wont work anymore.....

again.....

The effect of the ninjutsu Utsusemi will be completely removed by area attacks.

end of an era

[Kagi]

Originally posted by Naota1369
but sorry as for blink tanking it wont work anymore.....

again.....

end of an era

Go back and read Archain's post and the many others on the various types of AOE.

We don't know yet.

[Kiyosuki]

The way I see it either one of these will happen.

-The AOE it refer's to will not be every AOE, only ones that count as a full blown area attack. In which cast it won't be that bad at all.
--------If this happens and Ninja's get nothing new, it won't be that big of a deal.
--------If this happens and Ninja's get some new ability or something new in general, more power to SE. Just give Paladin's more new things to.

Or..

-AOE's of all types, even pidly little ones like bubble storm take all the blinks.
--------------If this happens, this is one way it could go. If Utsusemi San were implemented, it would lower the problem of having an overkill of shadows because you'd have backup shadow images incase this happens, to quickly compensate. To compensate lower levels, give JA's and Ninjutsu that raise evasion to noticable levels, or some form of Ninjutsu or a JA to counter this so that it would still require skill, but be a solid ability incase. Or perhaps there's the possiblity either Utsusemi San or an unnamed Ninjutsu will be specially designed to counter magic or AOE. Think of Utsu San as being a separate shadow image that would be a separate icon from Ichi and Ni, if an AOE or Ga spell happened it would take the hit instead of the regular shadow images. Where as if the enemy hits a Ninja regularly, it won't affect the San icon. Its always in backup until an AOE or a Ga spell, or both happens, then it takes effect. So if its not up, all shadow images will be lost, but if it is, it takes it instead. If the counter for this move was well planned, this could easilly work.
--------------If this happens, and SE does nothing new to Ninja's, it'll certainly be hard. But I won't give up this job personally..to me though, this isn't the most likely thing to happen. For a bloody expansion every job has to get something new and exciting. It'll boost sales..
---------------If this happens, and SE completely changes the way Ninja is played well..that can go anywhere. If this happens though, SE must give us Throwing WS's, abilities to hit faster and hit multiple times at a much faster rate to take full advantage of the fact Ninja is the Dual Sword master, and stronger enfeebles. Much stronger. I like blink tanking so I personally hope this one doesn't happen, but no matter what I'll go where this job goes.


Remember guys, it said at the bottom of this POL annoucement that many new additions are in the final testing phases, and haven't been revealed yet. So don't jump the gun just yet...its not over yet.

God, can CoP be any more anticipated now? Its almost suspenseful.

I personally hope no matter what, we get a Ninja only job trait similar to double attack or tripple attack that takes full advantage of dual wield no matter what Ninja does, and a job ability or Ninjutsu to either haste, or increase hit speed and evasion. I think speed is the way to go if this job is to be retuned in anyway, speed and hit count. Ninja's are always about speed speed speed. Oh, and have Tonko San give Invisible AND Sneak, and maybe Deodorize (Though that could be for...Shi...man, thats too far ahead. lol) I figure that after 60 or so levels, Ninja's pretty much earn the right to be able to sneak into anything.

And someone said that Ninja's are overpowered because they have decent offense and can avoid hits. I don't think they were overpowered at all as is, Ninja's had a good amount of faults too. That evasion/blink and balanced hit rate/dot thing can easilly be knocked off balance in the player isn't careful. Can't be anymore balanced than a steep learning curve. But I guess thats in the past now. Come on CoP hurry up..

[Cade]

Kiyosuki, you are my favorite taru.

[Biterman]

He certainly is. Everytime I watch his sig I get an itch to go and lvl NIN. ^^

[ShokotanKnight]

Originally posted by Biterman
He certainly is. Everytime I watch his sig I get an itch to go and lvl NIN. ^^

I must agree :sweat:

[Kiyosuki]

I just talk and think too much. I'm not past 60 yet so I'm still a newb.

I was going to change the avatar and sig picture sometime actually. :sweat:

On topic though, something I just can't understand is all the people who want "Ninja's to finally do what they should do". What? Backstab? Jump really high?

I guess they want the elemental enfeebler character badly, but I don't get it. The ability to tank, or divert the target's offense in some way while being able to fight back is a lot of power. Paladin's and Ninja's may not be the masters of damage but my god, can all those Drk's and Ranger's take it as well as give? Being able to protect the party's a great thing, I don't understand why these people want us to be just another Damage Dealer.

Its probably because they think it'll cost less than blink tanking..
Cheapoes.