So the almighty "Blink Tank" has fallen....kinda

[dagon2002]

I really dont get the uproar. Ga spells strip all shadows and now they make a FIX so that aoe damage attacks now strip shadows? whats the problem here?

Maybe if all you tards keep going to all the message boads and post on how ninja is dead maybe just maybe the vast majority of the other tards will believe this and heck could result in more invites for u plds.


Most pts normally have a war in at all levels so maybe they have to take a voke once in a while so nin can recast, wtf is the problem here?

Ninjas suck on monk type mobs? no news, ninjas suck on Ga line spells / aoe attacks? wtf no news either.

Bottom line, is half the morons posting about how ninja is dead, there the ones that posted on subtle blow was going to kill nin as a tank also. three words, GET A LIFE. S-E will not end blink tanking but will only make it better. wtf, is this going to be the last update? so why freak?

Ninja is a better tank and should be because WE SPEND MONEY TO TANK. Ive never seen a drk bitch about not dealing as much dmg as a rng and neither should plds. Also if san line does come out , this FIX makes ninja even a better tank then what it was b4 and makes the whole ???/nin melee class dead imho. Wow so what happens? it makes the nin main stronger. making the war/nins not as much as a factor anymore by adding san line.... this whole "nerf" could work out

Also, if war/nin gets the tail end of all of this, this only imho makes the tp nerf hurt even more for war because frankly /sam not much of an option anymore and whats good about war/nin TANK after this.


Spider is a troll that should be killed at sundown.

[Deodorant]

You're closer to being a troll than spider is ;3

Anyway, this whole uproar reminds me of the yokodama nerf, when everybody and his mother predicted the death of all thf's and lvl 60+ /thf's. Turned out the nerf wasn't as bad as people thought; it just forced tank/other melee to be slightly more involved than just attack and go get some soda.

In this case, I'm predicting that blink tanking efficiency will be reduced somewhat, but probably not really that significant, especially if other melee's and/or mages are quick enough on their fingers to react with stun/flash/provoke/whatever.

We'll wait and see, I suppose ;3

[Rekiem]

There is alot of people who have not done Blink tanking, to a serious level replying in this thread. Its something you can't understand by just having played with ninjas in your party. You need to have done it to understand how its done and possibly figure out how this change is going to affect the job.

So people like Spider-Dan or Biterman, don't have a clue about what they are talking about, are just troll and you guys shouldn't feed them by replying to their comment.

Don't feed the troll.

[Ozymandis]

Originally posted by dagon2002
Also, if war/nin gets the tail end of all of this, this only imho makes the tp nerf hurt even more for war because frankly /sam not much of an option anymore and whats good about war/nin TANK after this.

It really doesn't affect us much pre-74. Versus most mobs I only blink-tank the first six hits (unless I have a cooperative DRK casting Stun mid-fight). It's rare for a mob to do an AoE during this period.

Tanking isn't even half of what WAR/NIN is about. It's nice for DD more than anything.

Originally posted by Rekiem
After further thought, I think we'll still be able to tank, but we'll need to be healed much more often while BLM and DRK while have to pay more attention for Stun.

If you ever tanked Bird type monsters, you probably know about the Triple Attack special. It totally remove blink. Well its just gonna be like that.

What I think is that we'll have to equip Phalanx Rings, use Defender more often and eat Fish Kabob to make up for this change, which in the end, will remove our offensive power when were tanking, but we'll still be better tank than Paladins.

(|Hmmm.|) A more defense-centric Ninja will compromise offense and evasion. But doing damage seems to be a fair part of holding hate for Ninja. It's a vicious circle.

Originally posted by Gryff
the whole point of any tank is to make a group more exp efficient over time, typically this is done by reducing reducing the mp cost of healing in the case of paladin and ninja.

I dont know what level your ninja is ( maybe you would like to tell us? )


but you tanking vs an IT mob with +40 or higher evasion and tell me that the monster missing over 10 misses in a row isnt mp efficient or allows you to recover from losing blink.

If a NIN is taking hits, let's say 30% of the hits due to blink being dropped from the many AoEs that common exp mobs do, it suddenly becomes an undesireable tank.

WAR does more damage, and PLD holds hate far better. Both of these jobs will take less damage per-hit, PLD will be curing himself somewhat so that saves MP, WAR/NIN will be getting the first 6 hits free. NIN has a higher chance of being one-shotted, too.

Don't talk about evasion being consistently effective against IT++'s please. Maybe VT-IT, yes. I wouldn't trust an evade-only tank with my safety in any case.

[Kiyosuki]

Straightforwardly, here are the possible scenerios so far.

1: )This is a preliminary thing, and SE intends to add something to Ninja's upon release and this is to cover it

I think this is the most reasonable explanation for the time being. The announcement itself has said that there are many other changes coming that are in the process of being worked on. This isnt the end of the CoP updates..

2.)SE intends to take the effectiveness of Utsusemi away, and make Ninja's "elemental fighters", as is..

I really wish this option was less possible. It certainly seems right now with Paladins getting boosted abilities, and Ninja's this that this is the case. But if this is whats happening there's different ways it can go. If this option happened, Ninja's would be restricted to total fighters as they are now. This would be nothing like Yokodama because without blink tanking the job is very "soft" on all other aspects and wouldn't do well. Western and Japanese players alike would be extremely aggrivated, SE wouldn't be able to ignore it. Without Yokodama, Thf still has a solid place, Ninja wouldn't at the moment. Duel Wield and the enfeebles are just not strong enough on they're own. I don't think this outcome will happen personally, it'd be really stupid. Every job needs some kind of niche in this games system and unless Ninja's got a boost to other abilities, they'd have no real niche here.. And no, there still can't be something as I'm sorry, moronic as a "Puller class". Anyone and they're mom can pull, its hardly a specialized party filler. Basically, this option fatally gimps the entire Ninja job. Its doubtful, SE may be a bit uncoomunicative but they're not stupid. They wouldn't take this whole thing away without adding at least something.

3.)SE wants to stop blink tanking, but enhances Ninja's other abilities to new levels.

The common dream of people who want Ninja's to be "one hit killing machines" instead of diversionary tanks. I've said hundreds of times that the whole ultra assassin thing is actually not accurate when it comes to real Ninja's, and being some kind of diversionary bodyguard's actually something Ninja's did often, but thats beating an old horse.
Anyways, if this happened its certainly more preferable than option 2. The Ninjutsu, and Ninja's dual wield would have to be considerably enhanced to make it stand out. Its certainly possible, for those who have played it, think of Hawkeye as a Master Ninja in Seiken Densetsu 3. It is a non FF game but its still square. His style is somewhat reminicent of Ninja's in this game, more than others. Most Ninja's didn't rely on Ninjutsu as much as Ninja's in this game do in other FF's, except for Edge. They were more of a convenience than the necessity they are here. If Ninja's were made more like Hawkeye, and made a combination of Night Blade/Master Ninja's abilities, with Ninjutsu who's damage isn't fixed for the rest of the game, but is reliant on some kind of stat that gets more powerful as you level up, and is more powerful in general, than maybe..

The enfeebles would have to be more potent than even Rdm's enfeebles hands down too. Not just by a little, but by quite a bit. Ninja's would also need more different Ninjutsu, and finally Duel Wield. Either give them job abilities that temporarilly enhance dual wield, that are nerfed for sub use so its Ninja specific, or make the added delay a lot less for Ninja's only. Also, give Ninja's an ability akin to Monks, in adding an extra hit. In past FF and Hawkeye himself, the damage was all quantity over quality and it worked pretty well.
Its the same now with Ninja's later on but it would have to be even more aparent, Dual Wield for Ninja's alone would have to be an insanely deadly attribute to have to make this work. Add in abilities to go with it to take advantage of that, like ignore defense abilities like Hawkeye's Deadly Blade move, or something that that causes the ninja to hit a lot more in a short amount of time. If this option happened, Ninja's would have to be downright the absolute masters of Dual Wield, with no other having access to the same calibur of Dual Wield friendly abilities by subbing it. Subbing this would just be for the double sword thing, but Ninja's would have to be the specialists at it since it would become they're backbone. High damage and effectiveness. Also, if this option happened, SE would have no excuse to not put in Throwing WS, and for gods sakes make them more accurate later too!

In the end, making Ninja's this way would be a crap load of work for the dev's. To balance it out somehow so Ninja's are wanted. It would certainly work if it was done right, but it would be a lot of things to change. A lot.

4). This really won't nerf Ninja's all that bad, and all this is just the preliminary rants of some Paladins and Warriors, jumpy Ninja's, and blink tank haters.

Hey no one wants to admit it, but this is a scenerio too. I know most Paladins would love nothing more than to monopolize on the tanking scene for more invites. An entire party position for just one class. And Warriors (who like to pretend to be Ninja's, instead of Warrior/Ninja! Which is totally different and badass in its OWN way. ) tend to take any chance thats open to bash on Ninja's too. Its fine, Ninja's do the same thing to the other jobs too, its just silly rivalry. Then there's the people who want Ninja's to be like Tenchu, who think Blink tanking is "Un Ninja like" when its really not. Most of everyone knows that the way to use Edge in FF6 is to enfeeble the enemy, then stand in front with image on..and attack to draw attention. Sound familiar? :D Also, in most Ninja games like Shinobi or Ninja Gaiden, how do Ninja's fight? They dodge a lot, and hit a lot at the same time. Hmm? Even in reality, while Ninja's could assassinate, it was just one of many things they could do. it was not unheard of for them to bodyguard. Assassins make one hell of a bodyguard, ask the Secret Service. So think twice before you count something as "Un Ninja like", cause it may very well be Ninja like. Remember too, in MMORPG's there's two types of tanks. Those who take hits, "Defense point tanks", and those who divert hits, "Diversionary and stalling tanks". Tanking means a lot more than just taking hits..there's many ways to do it.

But fact is, is that many of these idea's may be pure speculation fueled by the fact that...the rivalry against blink tanking tends to be extremely strong. Like blood in the water..

Also in this reason, could be very well the fact that this "nerf" may not even hurt Ninja's all that much. I know at least it doesn't bother me that much, although it does a little. It'll come down to the next announcement to see weither SE really does want to hurt Ninja's, change them, or weither this is all talk.

5.) This is the brother scenerio to scenerio 1. SE is doing this now, but later on will add something later that aids Ninja's as they are now.

This is a very plausable explanation too. It would require less work than idea 3. it would also not piss off a legion of people who leveled high using Ninja as a tank. If SE decides that they want to keep Ninja's as a diversionary tank, they may be doing this to add room for a new ability. Like maybe Utsusemi san will have something to do with AOE's, or maybe a whole new ability altogether. There's pretty much a whole world of things SE can do if this option hapens that I've probably already mentioned. But it would be basically an upgrade of Ninja's as they are now, instead of transforming the class. Remember, the announcements arn't over yet..

So basically there's 4 options.Ninja will become gimp, Ninja will be changed into a new type of fighter, Ninja will be enhanced as a tank with other abilities, or Ninja won't really be hurt at all.

SE's enhancing Wheeling Thrust for Dragoons, so they can't be too ignorant to many of the player's current problems. There must be something SE hasn't revealed yet to justify the the change. Personally I think idea 1/5 and 4 are the most possible. This doesn't exactly ruin blink tanking, but it certainly makes it harder. It feels like a compliment to something we haven't seen yet..

As if CoP couldn't be even more anticipated..

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by Deodorant
Anyway, this whole uproar reminds me of the yokodama nerf, when everybody and his mother predicted the death of all thf's and lvl 60+ /thf's.

But post-60 THFs are dead... (well, post-66)

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by Rekiem
There is alot of people who have not done Blink tanking, to a serious level replying in this thread. Its something you can't understand by just having played with ninjas in your party. You need to have done it to understand how its done and possibly figure out how this change is going to affect the job.

Just like you need to play a DRG to understand how the TP nerf hurt them, right?

[Mitsu]

Throw WS yes!!!!!!. SE need to go ahead and implement Throw ws. Look at the facts. All other weapons have a ws EXCEPT throw. Ninja has A+ in throw. All that combined equals a call for throw ws. Now for ninjutsu...people who conplain about Utsu and blink tanking need to stfu><. Not only do ninjas NOT have any new ninjutsu above 50 , but the current ninjutsu line is incomplete. Personally I dun care about the Utsu AOE nerf it only makes it more fun, but what I do care about is the job of ninja. Having played a nin for a VERY, EXTREMLLY long time I can safely say that ninja incomplete and needs some tweaking. I hope CoP does this, bc even though IM 75 I love ninja above all other jobs, it has so much potential but it is purposely nipped in the bud by SE. for exapmple...NO BARRAGE WITH SHURIKEN, Fuma shuriken stacking to only 12!!!!!!, and a DAMN RARE shuriken with D85 and rng acc+18 <-------that star alone is every ninjas wet dream, but its rare and ninja dont have conserve throw ><.

[Kiyosuki]

I'm guessing Ninja's haven't gotten Throwing WS, and SE has left Shuriken's very innacurate later because in the the Paladin's niche is that they can keep hate better. Oh man, if we got Throwing WS, along with how fast DW becomes later I don't think a Ninja could ever lose hate then.

Ofcourse if this mythical event where blink tanking becomes totally nerfed ever happened, SE would have absolutely no excuse to not do this anymore.

I hope all the jobs get something big, because then Ninja's can finally "stop holding back" and get more Ninjutsu. XD

I wish that japanese message board list wasn't fake..

Warriors switching weapons without tp loss, Drg's getting huge stat bonuses if the Wyvern dies, and being able to heal it themselves, Whm's aquiring less hate with a Job Trait..

Then the Ninja abilities. A Job Ability (finally!) that would decrease attack power and defense, but double attack speed and evasion. Then a new Ninjutsu "Smokescreen", which would be a self spell that would increase critical hit rate and evasion rate.

Man...why'd it have to be fake.

I personally think the most important thing a Ninja needs is some kind of job trait like Double Attack, Tripple attack, or Kick. Something that adds an extra attack, or something to increase dual wield hits. Ninja's should be the undisputed kings of Two Weapon wielding. They get speedier than the others, but they should be able to have something on they're own that makes the fact they're using two one handed weapons really count. Double Attack is great, but I'd love something unique for Ninja's to use on they're own. I think thats the biggest thing that needs to be addressed, then for others subbing it, Dual Wield is good to have for effects, but for Ninja's, it would be they're backbone like it always is.

Oh well. We have 22 days to find out what lies in store for Ninja.

I have this gut feeling that a new type of Ninjutsu's going to be revealed. Not a new line, just a new type of spell for Ichi, Ni, and maybe San when it comes. Smokescreen would make a hell of a lot of sense, but its just a feeling.

[Biterman]

Originally posted by Rekiem
So people like Spider-Dan or Biterman, don't have a clue about what they are talking about, are just troll and you guys shouldn't feed them by replying to their comment.

Don't feed the troll.

*reads Dagon2002 post* And Spider and me are the trolls here? :confused:

You really need to count how many AOE a mob does per fight right now to your lvl 60 NIN then come back with a straight face and tell me all that is nothing. YOU were the one to proclaim NIN is the best tank, right when your solution to this was to use PLD equip to ease the lost of shadows

I really think you should understand the whole damage mitigation and how that affects hate before you post again, because what good is your def and evasion if you get hit once and the mob then turns to the DD?

You dont want to believe me because you consider me a troll? Fine, do yourself a favor and read Ozymandis' post. Unless you also consider him a troll for not agreing with you.

[ibroyles]

Re: omfg you newbs are dumb

LOL, I think you guys all missed the true troll.

Originally posted by mastaflex2002
Currently I am a lvl 60nina/war and all I have to say is you fucking dumb fucks that are thinking that blink tanking will go away dont know shit about blink tankig whatsoever. Wow and AOE attack strips all the shadows ok so ill take maybe 1 or 2 at the most hits untill I can recast utsusemi again big fucking whoop stupid ass idiots. Blinktanking will not go away AOE will have no effect whatsoever on on how a ninja plays his job.

[kisada]

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
But post-60 THFs are dead... (well, post-66)

Wrong.

If anything its very difficult to get from 60-65 as THF. Normally I think you make good arguments but the more bogus claims and bullshit you post, the less credible you become.

Just like you need to play a DRG to understand how the TP nerf hurt them, right?

Bad analogy. It's extremely easy to comprehend how a DRG was hurt by the TP fix. The idea of DRG, TP, and Pentathrust is a simple concept by itself. Ninja is significantly more complex, and yes it does require a great deal of playing in order to gain a greater understanding of how ninja tanking works. There are so many more critical factors in determining how a ninja will tank a monster, that there really should be no comparison between the TP fix and the utsusemi nerf.

[Madden]

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
Just like you need to play a DRG to understand how the TP nerf hurt them, right?

Sure TP nerf hurt Dragoons but people like you posting how crap they are killed them for sure. I xp to from 61-75 with Dragoon + Thief and almost never went under 4500-5000xp/h and that with 2 brooken jobs according to you.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by kisada
If anything its very difficult to get from 60-65 as THF. Normally I think you make good arguments but the more bogus claims and bullshit you post, the less credible you become.

I don't think you even know what I'm referring to, which is bizarre, considering that you're a DRK. THF/x can still close chains better than DRK/THF from 60-64 (closing Distortion with SATADE is better than closing Induration with SATAGuillotine, or any other option DRK has), but once DRK gets Spinslash, THF is just obsolete. It's not that THF is BAD (obviously you can still do well with a THF in party), it's just that DRK/THF is simply better. I'm sure there are 3249873987 threads in both the DRK and THF forums detailing why.

Bad analogy. It's extremely easy to comprehend how a DRG was hurt by the TP fix. The idea of DRG, TP, and Pentathrust is a simple concept by itself. Ninja is significantly more complex, and yes it does require a great deal of playing in order to gain a greater understanding of how ninja tanking works. There are so many more critical factors in determining how a ninja will tank a monster, that there really should be no comparison between the TP fix and the utsusemi nerf.

Sorry, but you vastly overstate the complexity of blink tanking. Any job in this game can be played to perfection by a 12-year-old. The game is not brain surgery. I doubt that anyone posting in this thread honestly believes that playing FFXI is mentally taxing; the "most complex" jobs are simply those that prevent you from making a meal while playing them.

I understand enough about managing shadows from leveling my Ninja (and playing as RNG/NIN) to understand the potential impact of AOE stripping shadows. Even if I had never played NIN at all, any reasonably intelligent person can understand FFXI job duties by watching those in their party and reading the information available in forums like this. It is not some arcane super-complex secret that requires months of intensive training.

[imac2much]

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
I don't think you even know what I'm referring to, which is bizarre, considering that you're a DRK. THF/x can still close chains better than DRK/THF from 60-64 (closing Distortion with SATADE is better than closing Induration with SATAGuillotine, or any other option DRK has), but once DRK gets Spinslash, THF is just obsolete. It's not that THF is BAD (obviously you can still do well with a THF in party), it's just that DRK/THF is simply better.

I agree almost 90%, and I've stated this point several times in other threads. Post 66, SATA Spinning Slash is vastly superior to SATA Shark Bite, and as a bonus DRK/THF does more DPS than a THF/WAR or THF/NIN ever will. However, I believe that THF has its place with a NIN, because they do more "tricked" damage than DRK/THF overall (SATA regular hit from THF does more damage than SATA regular hit from DRK/THF) even though their regular hits are much weaker than a DRK/THF. In this sense they are still quite useful, although overall their desirability drops down a whole lot post 66 (especially considering the amount of NIN tanks as opposed to PLD tanks).

As for your downplay of blink tanking.... Dan, maybe it's about time you admit YOU may not know everything there is to know about this game. Having watched *GOOD* NIN's play, I'll be the first to admit that RDM and NIN are the busiest jobs around and NIN IMO is the hardest to play *effectively*. Yes, any 10 year old can play the game and be decent, maybe even average, but to be a GREAT NIN tank (i.e. hold aggro efficiently, don't waste mages' MP, keep up shadows at all times), it is a lot tougher than you think. Not only are good NIN tanks juggling Jubaku ichi, Hojo ni, Kurayami ni along with their blinks, they need to keep careful track of their shadows for blink overwrites, and be sure to cancel any extra shadows when going from Ni -> Ichi since Ichi does not overwrite Ni. If you don't, you waste a shihei and get hit a few times while waiting for Ni to come back. Also you keep careful track of the mages' spells or for renkei bursts, so you can burst an elemental NI scroll or weaken the enemy's resistance to the spell's element or both. To say you understand the NIN's job just from playing your NIN/RNG (no bashing on that combo mind you) or RNG/NIN is simply naive.

For most jobs, this game is a cakewalk and any decently capable individual can play it alright. But for some jobs there is a varying gap between 'alright' and 'exceptional', and NIN is one of the jobs where the discrepancy is startling.

On a side note, not directed at you Dan... since when do good DRG's use penta in an xp PT at high levels..? :confused: