Some NIN/RNG logs (long)

[Spider-Dan]

I needed to level my subjob (NIN) this weekend, and so I went to Kazham and joined some parties as NIN/RNG. I logged the damage from all these parties (LV25-28) so that I could share them. (Note that I tried to save and clear the log file from in game (using parser commands) when I dinged 28, but it saved the Report screen instead of Summary, so I had to add the totals myself.)

For the record, here are the log files:

http://venomweb.150m.com/logs/ninrng25.rtf
http://venomweb.150m.com/logs/ninrng26.rtf
http://venomweb.150m.com/logs/ninrng26-27.rtf
http://venomweb.150m.com/logs/ninrng27e.rtf <- manual edit
http://venomweb.150m.com/logs/ninrng28.rtf

Here's what the log files say:

LV25
NIN/WAR
Total Fights: 34
Average Damage: 111.765
Average Percent: 8.697
Average Accuracy: 53.83
Estimated DPS:

BLM
Total Fights: 33
Average Damage: 172.242
Average Percent: 13.228
Average Accuracy: 0
Estimated DPS:

NIN/RNG
Total Fights: 33
Average Damage: 274.939
Average Percent: 21.013
Average Accuracy: 58.25
Estimated DPS:

SMN
Total Fights: 29
Average Damage: 56.276
Average Percent: 4.246
Average Accuracy: 55.11
Estimated DPS:

Leviathan (pet)
Total Fights: 30
Average Damage: 115.967
Average Percent: 8.947
Average Accuracy: 65.94
Estimated DPS:

THF
Total Fights: 32
Average Damage: 286.688
Average Percent: 22.606
Average Accuracy: 60.31
Estimated DPS:

----
LV26
DRK
Total Fights: 18
Average Damage: 249.5
Average Percent: 23.673
Average Accuracy: 57.89
Estimated DPS:

RDM
Total Fights: 17
Average Damage: 120.706
Average Percent: 11.416
Average Accuracy: 56.72
Estimated DPS:

MNK
Total Fights: 17
Average Damage: 243.118
Average Percent: 23.253
Average Accuracy: 55.5
Estimated DPS:

NIN/RNG
Total Fights: 18
Average Damage: 403.167
Average Percent: 38.339
Average Accuracy: 67.99
Estimated DPS:

----
LV26-27
NIN/RNG
Total Fights: 23
Average Damage: 329.304
Average Percent: 29.803
Average Accuracy: 64.1
Estimated DPS:

WAR
Total Fights: 25
Average Damage: 126.76
Average Percent: 11.854
Average Accuracy: 58.92
Estimated DPS:

WAR
Total Fights: 23
Average Damage: 312.217
Average Percent: 28.622
Average Accuracy: 62.11
Estimated DPS:

BLM
Total Fights: 16
Average Damage: 290.75
Average Percent: 26.749
Average Accuracy: 0
Estimated DPS:

DRK
Total Fights: 5
Average Damage: 172.2
Average Percent: 12.706
Average Accuracy: 46.33
Estimated DPS:

----
LV27 (manual log compilation)
NIN/RNG
Total Fights: 28
Average Damage: 371.571
Total Damage: 10404
Estimated DPS:

WAR
Total Fights: 11

Average Damage: 240.090
Total Damage: 2641
Estimated DPS:

WAR/RDM
Total Fights: 11
Average Damage: 108.272
Total Damage: 1191
Estimated DPS:

WAR
Total Fights: 14
Average Damage: 239.214
Total Damage: 3349
Estimated DPS:

BLM
Total Fights: 26
Average Damage: 208.884
Total Damage: 5431
Estimated DPS:

DRK
Total Fights: 28
Average Damage: 194.107
Total Damage: 5435
Estimated DPS:

DRK/BLM
Total Fights: 6
Average Damage: 355.667
Total Damage: 2134
Estimated DPS:

DRK
Total Fights: 8
Average Damage: 224.25
Total Damage: 1794
Estimated DPS:

----
LV28
DRK
Total Fights: 22
Average Damage: 225.318
Average Percent: 23.661
Average Accuracy: 58.1
Estimated DPS:

WAR
Total Fights: 10
Average Damage: 252
Average Percent: 18.369
Average Accuracy: 54.01
Estimated DPS:

NIN/RNG
Total Fights: 22
Average Damage: 519.273
Average Percent: 40.59
Average Accuracy: 58.15
Estimated DPS:

DRK
Total Fights: 20
Average Damage: 215.2
Average Percent: 15.988
Average Accuracy: 54.91
Estimated DPS:

BLM
Total Fights: 10
Average Damage: 221.5
Average Percent: 16.109
Average Accuracy: 0
Estimated DPS:

WAR
Total Fights: 11
Average Damage: 171.727
Average Percent: 13.706
Average Accuracy: 56.26
Estimated DPS:

RDM
Total Fights: 6
Average Damage: 111.167
Average Percent: 8.246
Average Accuracy: 45.51
Estimated DPS:

-------------------------

I know that some people will scream, "Lowbie levels don't count!", but I can only parse the levels that my NIN is at, /shrug. It's doubtful that I'll be taking NIN past 37 anyway.

The log results seem to indicate what I've been saying all along, not that it should be any big surprise that someone using guns in mid-20s is going to do lots of damage. One interesting aspect of NIN/RNG (compared to RNG/NIN) is that because I'm a NIN, I don't necessarily have to stop shooting when I get aggro. Tanking gear and RACC gear are fairly convergent (almost identically so at these levels, anyway).

All jobs were using proper subs except as noted.

P.S. Assuming I have enough supplies to last to 30, total cost in ammo/powders so far to get NIN/RNG from 19-30 = ~240k

P.P.S. I hate Kazham.

[Rekiem]

For a big whooping of 6,000gil I can buy two lv 46 Yoto katana and outdamage you and your lv 42 Negoroshiki (best gun a NIN can use) with your 240,000 gil worth of Lv22 Bullet (best ammo a NIN can use with gun).

Nuff said.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by Rekiem
For a big whooping of 6,000gil I can buy two lv 46 Yoto katana and outdamage you and your lv 42 Negoroshiki (best gun a NIN can use) with your 240,000 gil worth of Lv22 Bullet (best ammo a NIN can use with gun).

Nuff said.

Are you kidding? Maybe at LV65 with full AF, DW4, Double Attack and a bunch of haste equipment (I still doubt it, though). At LV46, you would get destroyed, hands down.

A D74 Gun + Bullet combo will unceremoniously wipe the floor with dual wielded D25 katanas, regardless of your DW3 haste. Do you realize that you are effectively saying that you could also outdamage a gun RNG at that level, too? Negoroshiki is the highest dmg gun available at LV46, to any class.

What does any of this have to do with the logs I presented? Axe to grind?

[stray]

people actually buy standard yoto's? all i ever see are the +1's.

anyway. i'm going to take the high road on this one and say... yea... lowbie levels don't count ><

if you're levelling a sub you're going to get away with alot more leeway... and in khazam in general standards aren't that high. you're comparing apples to apples there as well... ninja marksmanship isn't that divergent compared to a ranger's and you're using level 22 bullets (i assume), which are relatively current as well. aside from that ninja's aren't exactly known for their prowess tanking mandys. actually aside from that you're spamming bullets... in the jungle. that's not exactly an everyday thing.

I'm assuming you have a job in the 50's if you're taking your sub to 28. Logically speaking, if you invite a nin/rng in Kazham you're pretty much dealing with a ranger main levelling their sub. I've known people who got away with nin/thf, nin/mnk, whatever from 0-30. If you invite a nin/rng to kuftal or terrigan or past that... well... hmm... that's like the days i ask paladin's if they have greatsword max or close so they can do *something* other than tank when they're the only thing on seek. which isn't to say nin/rng can't probably be a somewhat decent damage dealer at those levels... but at a point where true rangers can equip silver bullets and learn sidewinder and slug shot, and nin/war's can tank their way to chain 6'es... i dunno... if there's a plausible reason someone would want to play a nin/rng over rng/nin or nin/war i'd love to be enlightened.

[stray]

as an aside i have had a Negoroshiki equipped with level 22 bullets since level 48 or so... it just looks so cool >< at least until i can equip Lightning Bow next level.

[Rekiem]

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
Are you kidding? Maybe at LV65 with full AF, DW4, Double Attack and a bunch of haste equipment (I still doubt it, though). At LV46, you would get destroyed, hands down.

A D74 Gun + Bullet combo will unceremoniously wipe the floor with dual wielded D25 katanas, regardless of your DW3 haste. Do you realize that you are effectively saying that you could also outdamage a gun RNG at that level, too? Negoroshiki is the highest dmg gun available at LV46, to any class.

What does any of this have to do with the logs I presented? Axe to grind?

Yoto DMG 25 Delay 232
DW3 Yoto DMG 50 Delay 348

Negoroshiki DMG 28 Delay 600
Bullet DMG 46 Delay 240
Both together DMG 74 Delay 840
-----------------------------------------------------

DMG 50 Delay 348 VS. DMG74 Delay 840

See, the Yoto's outdamage the Negoroshiki with Bullet. As matter of fact, you dont even need Dual Wield bonus to do so.

Do you realize that you are effectively saying that you could also outdamage a gun RNG at that level, too? Negoroshiki is the highest dmg gun available at LV46, to any class.

No, because the problem with your whole NIN/RNG is that you don't seem to grasp the fact that the best ammo NIN can use is a Lv22 Bullet. If a RNG used a Silver Bullet, Lv50 DMG 81, he would outdamage the NIN. They also have Barrage, Sharpshot and much more accuracy.

This is the whole reason why NIN/RNG is not doable. Even though you just showed us your performance in Kazham, this has absolutely nothing at all do the with the real game.

Its exactly the same as me, going WAR/WHM and saying Im better than a WAR/MNK at level 15. Sure its better, but really, who care about level 15?

[Narru]

Originally posted by Rekiem
Yoto DMG 25 Delay 232
DW3 Yoto DMG 50 Delay 348

Negoroshiki DMG 28 Delay 600
Bullet DMG 46 Delay 240
Both together DMG 74 Delay 840
-----------------------------------------------------

DMG 50 Delay 348 VS. DMG74 Delay 840

See, the Yoto's outdamage the Negoroshiki with Bullet. As matter of fact, you dont even need Dual Wield bonus to do so.

Quotes like these just make me cringe :mad:

I see that your main job is a bard, which might explain this way of thinking (not too much experience with melee): You cannot just look up the numbers on mysterytour and add them together and then just say, see, the damage/delay ratio is higher here, thus I'll do more damage than you. There are a whole slew of other factors to consider - one being weapon multipliers or what I like to call "punch through effect".

Here's an easy test - if you have your ranger job unlocked. Hopefully you have that and another melee job at about the same level. Gear up for both, and find a melee weapon and a ranged combination that has similar damage/delay. Go out into the field and try both of them out. Any ranger would tell you that the damage done on ranged weapons seems to be oddly higher than what your damage/delay would lead you to believe, and also will beat out the melee weapon. I believe you quoted something to the extent of "has nothing at all to do with the real game" - which I must point back at yourself.

Now the reason why this is so is debatable. I've heard arguments that different weapons have different multipliers. I've also heard arguments (which I happen to favor over the multiplier argument) for the "punch through effect." Which basically claims that defense is not percentage based, but has a cutoff. Instead of cutting damage across all numbers, it'll only cut damage for the first X number of damage points. Edit: To avoid confusion and just get to the point, a 200 damage/400 delay weapon will perform much better than a 100 damage/200 delay weapon.

[Rekiem]

How about you bring some hard numbers or some log to back up all of your theories about how damage work?

Punch through effect, damage cut off, percentage based, weapon multiplier, woah. Thats really alot of stuff to digest!

I see that your main job is a bard, which might explain this way of thinking (not too much experience with melee)

Alchemy sure teach you how melee works! (*'-')b

FYI, I also play NIN =P

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by Rekiem
Yoto DMG 25 Delay 232
DW3 Yoto DMG 50 Delay 348

Negoroshiki DMG 28 Delay 600
Bullet DMG 46 Delay 240
Both together DMG 74 Delay 840
-----------------------------------------------------

DMG 50 Delay 348 VS. DMG74 Delay 840

See, the Yoto's outdamage the Negoroshiki with Bullet. As matter of fact, you dont even need Dual Wield bonus to do so.

ROTFL. Do you know anything about how damage actually works?

Let me show you how useless adding numbers like this really is.

LV58 THF/NIN
Chicken Knife - D21/176
Hornetneedle - D16/150
Total - "D37"/326, with DW2 haste D37/277.1
Damage per delay (higher is better) - 0.1335

LV59 RNG/x
Sarnga - D72/720
Scorpion Arrow - D24/90
Total - D96/810
Damage per delay - 0.1185

OMGzor!!!!! I have just mathemagically proven that THF/NIN with Chicken Knife and Hornetneedle will outdamage a RNG with Sarnga and scorps... without even using Sneak Attack! Start the revolution!

The reason why adding numbers up this way doesn't work is simple; D25 x 2 is NOT the same as D50. Not even remotely close. Mob defense is subtracted from each hit, so very little of your tiny D25 weapon's damage actually penetrates through to the target.

No, because the problem with your whole NIN/RNG is that you don't seem to grasp the fact that the best ammo NIN can use is a Lv22 Bullet. If a RNG used a Silver Bullet, Lv50 DMG 81, he would outdamage the NIN. They also have Barrage, Sharpshot and much more accuracy.

RNG can't use Silver Bullets at LV46, now can they?

So essentially, you are saying that a NIN/WAR would outdamage a gun RNG at LV46, as long as he didn't use Barrage. Pass the pipe.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by Rekiem
How about you bring some hard numbers or some log to back up all of your theories about how damage work?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Did you notice WHAT THE TOPIC OF THIS THREAD IS????

You obviously don't care even when logs are presented right to your face!

[Rekiem]

No youre right, I really dont care about the damage of a lv25 NIN/RNG in kazham.

My method of calculating damage is probably wrong seeing your example made with dagger made it seem pretty ridiculous, I give you that. But even then, I still think that a NIN/RNG is totally crappy and totally unviable past level 46. Your accuracy is too low, the weapons are outdated, you have no good WS, not too mention that your throwing tons of cash for a mediocre damage.

Like I said, your damage might be nice in Kazham but it won't last long. You're prime into the guns and bullet level range but past that, they turn severly gimped. Not only because theres no upgrade but also because your skill will be too low once you reach lv50+. A weapon with C rating will rarely every hit against IT, even if you have bling bling R.ACC equip and Bard songs. Your R.ATT will also be too low. Don't you forget double attack and berserk, those two alone at level 50 really shine.

Long story short, NIN/RNG at level 19-30 using a gun really doesn't matter and does not reflect the real game.

If you want to spend tons of cash, be cool and unique, I suggest you try Throwing and Ninjustu. Shuriken damage is insane, mostly at those level and cost about the same has Bullets but you also have access to higher skill, better ammo. Ninjustu, at lv 40, when the skill is capped, deal some very sweet damage and it stays good for MB. If you have cash to spend and want something hot, to this instead. Not only you will be far more effective at it but it will stay effective at higher level if your rich enough.

One last thing, using caps and starting to laugh by quoting someone with your argument is very disrespectfull. There is no need to be rude on this forum. If you don't agree with someone, simply say so without trying to insult or humiliate them.

[greysenn]

Guns do fairly unimpressive damage from 30-49, then take a real nice hike at 50. I doubt he would destroy your damage with Yoto's at 46, but he'd probably be doing pretty comparable numbers if he wasn't blink tanking.

Thats a decent post there S-D. It definetly works well for damage at that level.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by Rekiem
Long story short, NIN/RNG at level 19-30 using a gun really doesn't matter and does not reflect the real game.

The point of posting these logs is to establish that at least at some point, NIN/RNG does "good" damage (I would personally call doing double the damage of anyone else in your party "amazingly great damage," but whatever).

Now that I have irrefutable proof that NIN/RNG can be a damage dealer, the next step is to figure out at exactly what level they stop being a DD. I have very little interest in listening to baseless conjecture on this subject; the majority of people were screaming that NIN/RNG is always gimped, period, which is clearly not true. At LV28, I easily outdamaged the other members of my party. So when exactly does NIN/RNG stop working? LV35? LV45? LV55? LV65? And how do we define that? Offhand, I'd have to say that NIN/RNG can be considered to have lost effectiveness when you are consistently doing the least damage; if you are still outdamaging one of the other DDs, you can't really be considered to be inviable.

My goal in making posts like these is to get more people to consider and try NIN/RNG, so that I can find out answers to questions like the above.

Of course, like any debate, there is absolutely no point in trying to convert the fanatics (on either side); there is a group of people who will never acknowledge NIN/RNG's effectiveness no matter what is said, and it's unlikely that my mind would be changed either (I've discussed this particular topic enough to see all the counterarguments, by this point). The purpose of discussions like this is to hopefully convince the fence-sitters who haven't already made up their mind that the subject is worth investigating. Most of these fence-sitters won't even post in a thread like this.

One last thing, using caps and starting to laugh by quoting someone with your argument is very disrespectfull. There is no need to be rude on this forum. If you don't agree with someone, simply say so without trying to insult or humiliate them.

Originally posted by Rekiem
For a big whooping of 6,000gil I can buy two lv 46 Yoto katana and outdamage you and your lv 42 Negoroshiki (best gun a NIN can use) with your 240,000 gil worth of Lv22 Bullet (best ammo a NIN can use with gun).

Nuff said.

Had your initial response either been a) not sarcastic or b) remotely true, you wouldn't have solicited the responses that you did.

[Rupert]

NO!

Ok listen to this will you outdamage him .. answer is no

nin/rng he can use gun now but later he can use shurikens and yes you have to be bill gates to use them but that is how the nin/rng can easily out damage you Mr. Bardguy

lvl 48 Manji Shuriken Dmg:63 Delay:192
on my server 50k a stack
so very expensive but very good damage
Ninja is the master of throwing weapons
AF armor +throwing skill, +ranged acc, and +ranged att

after that later shurikens get so expensive it will kill you to purchase them.. but this shuriken is good enough

[Rekiem]

I wasn't sarcastic and I was speaking the truth.

M goal in making posts like these is to get more people to consider and try NIN/RNG, so that I can find out answers to questions like the above.

Even if it was remotely effective, it would still be subpar because you wouldnt be able to use your tanking abilities and Ranger would still outdamage you. Why play NIN/RNG when you can play RNG/NIN and be 10 times better at it for the same exact price? Only reason I see is that the player doesn't have WAR job level'ed really.

As a matter of fact, why not play NIN/WAR and use the same gun and bullets. You would still get Provoke, Berserk and Double Attack later on. You only lose 10 accuracy from the ranger passive trait and the accuracy special. Point is, you would keep the NIN basic tanking skills while still remaining effective with a gun.

I just don't see the point of being NIN/RNG when you can be NIN/WAR.

Btw, S-D, why dont make that your next test? Go NIN/WAR instead of NIN/RNG and log the damage.