NIN only useful for blink tank?

[Ragnarok54321]

I have heard many people say this and if this is true I am very saddened by this. All throughout history Ninjas have been badass assassins and masters of stealth. You look at any ninja game and they are kicking ass with their quickness and overall cool factor, not taking hits for others. I wonder why SE took the ninja from something of awe and turned it into a WAR/PLD in crappy armor. Well I see that I have been just been rambling on about ninjas....so back to my question: NIN only useful for blink tank?

[Cali]

To me, yes, currently NIN is a blink tank, and nothing else...

I think SE needs to balance the job... they originally designed NIN to be a enfeeble damage dealer melee... but then we players introduced blink tanks.

Now, let me explain why I think NIN is nothing more than a blink tank...
Damage - any melee out do NIN's damage...
Enfeeble - we have RDM and BRD, although huton and hyoton can stack with thernody as I was told, some of the kurayami or whatever needs to go in special order, like flash -> kurayami -> blind, if you go in the wrong sequence, you cancel eachother...and how many people you know that can do things in order, I mean.. I have seen mages using silence on crawlers because they are the enfeebler...
Pulling - RNG and others can do just as good.
Tanking - blink tank..
Stealth - ... you sneak around while lvling? O.o;

Just my thoughts.

[Ragnarok54321]

I see your point, you can't really do all the cool ninja stuff in an RPG. :dead:

[DemonicTutor]

I'm actually a lvl 40 bard, but i'll give my thoughts on ninja (excuse me if any of this info is incorrect)

There have been several threads about this. Everyone thinks that the blink tank role doesn't exactly fit the idea of ninja, but as many other people have brought up (too lazy to look for the threads), blink tanking does fit a ninjas role very well.

How is creating shadows to make an enemy miss you NOT a ninja thing to do?

while we as the FFXI community have found a way to maximize this potential (by having ninjas serve as tanks), using shadows to force the enemy to miss is a ninja like thing, if you ask me.

Just because ninjas have enfeebling powders doesn't necessarily mean that they were intended to be offensive red mages or something. Paladins get Flash, which acts as an enfeeble, and many cures as well, does this mean that SE created paladins to be white mages?

I'm sure that there was some intention in SE's mind that Ninjas could be used for blink tanking. Hell, some of the armors ninjas can use have +emnity on them (while people like to think that this was to aid a samurai in tanking, the question would still remain as to why ninjas can also use this armor if they weren't thought of to tank on some occassions).

And yes, ninjas can do damage as well. It just requires a lot of money. If you look around the boards, there are many lvl 70+ ninjas that say that damage is the tool they use to keep hate, because they do a good load of it. In addition, the damage of shuri's is pretty nice (albeit expensive).

It seems that people who hate the idea of blink tanking are just sore that it requires a lot of money to do it. Blink tanking is very ninja-like, and it's been used effectively to make the ninja class a highly sought after class. What comes with this power? Cost. SE made the class with the idea that it would be a very expensive class, and without blink tanking, i would hardly see why the class would be expensive (except for if the person was spamming suri's, but i doubt anyone, unless they were really rich, would do that)

All in all, people have 3 options:
1) Sub thief. Sure, i'll be up front and say it's a crap sub, but at least you can play your job without having the high expense
2) Not play the job at all
3) accept the fact that this is a high cost class, but comes with incredible power, and sub war

[Kiyosuki]

Ninja's can do really good damage as well as enfeeble. Its just that 90% of the time your really not needed to be in that position. The only time really is if a party with a Paladin tank is so desperate for a damage dealer that they get you in some really rare occasions, in which you're obviously the more viable option between yourself and a Paladin to hit hard. But 9 times out of 10 your not partying with a Paladin. If your in a party with a Drg, a War, and yourself, the party isn't going to want the War to tank over you, they'll want a blink tank. Ninja's can be great damage dealer's but its just that most of the time they're the best candidate to be a party defender.




Ninja's are like the secret agents of Vanadiel. I feel this is a much closer idea to the real Ninja than the whole badass assassin image they've attained.

I've studied the philosophy of Ninjutsu from a certain source (I'd love to take actual lessons on it...it could happen one day.)

As far as fighting classes in Japan went, The Samurai caste were pure Warriors of most weapons and whatever styles suited them, as well as the traditional Samurai arts. Trained Monks also had a number of different fighting knowledges which were used. The average foot soldier's were the number army, and many different forms of bandits and pirates made up a number of other jobs including Assassins. The purpose of an assassin is you basically specialize in the elimination of targets as quickly and silently as possible. So what made Ninja's so unique?

Around the time the Mongols managed to land on Japanese soil (the Kamikaze phenomenon happened later, but they did land for a short while) The Japanese discovered first hand how powerful intelligence and indirect offenses in war were, as the straight forward methods of the Samurai at the time were near useless against the efficient mongols who could care less about ritualistic dueling (Even the Samurai attained more "sneaky" tactics after that, such as ambushing and gorrila warefare)

When something resembling the first Ninja first appeared it was something that had never been seen before. A caste of Warrior that specialized in intelligence, an ancient spy really. The Ninja, or something resmebling Ninja did exist in China before hand, the word Ninja originated in Japan however, and many distinctive parts of it we know today came from Ninja clans like the legendary Koga clan. You see, what made the Ninja so poignant were how flexible they were. Most today think that Ninja's were nothing but backstabbing assassins but this is really far from the real Ninja. The Ninja filled all the gaps that the Samurai, fighting Monks, Armies, and even organized thugs couldn't offer. If a side needed intelligence and information about the other side, the Ninja could do it. If someone needed reconosance, the Ninja could do it. If a powerful lord or an important figure needed a body guard, the Ninja could do it. And if a certain person needed to be "silenced" the Ninja could do it. The true Ninja were generalists who developed incredibly guarded secretive methods to doing each one efficiently and with precision. The central mindset of Ninjutsu isn't "I'm gonna flip out and kill people", its about attaining the ultimate belief in one's self to allow yourself to flow into any situation you find yourself in. They're stealthy tactics are the most famous because its the side of the Ninja that received the most attention over tall tales and word of mouth speculation over the centuries. However the ideal of staying stealthy was important because it personified the very essense of the Ninja. In a society where status and public presentation were so important, the Ninja developed they're own way that existed outside of this philosophy. They could work outside of the system to acomplish thing's no other warrior class could. Thats the real Ninja in a heartbeat. They were agents, Assassination was just one function they could perform should they need to.

All that said, the Ninja's purpose is incredible flexible. Ninja's can be spy's, they can be bodyguards, they can be assassins, or a bit of everything. So having a Ninja be a Bodyguard in a game, using they're own unique blend of trickery to defend is much more Ninja than most who think of Strider Hiryu, Tenchu and Shinobi seem to think.

I do wish the Ninja had more offensive power, but the way they are in this game, they kind of "sabotage" the enemy. If anything, other than being "invisible", the other thing Ninja's were notorious for were how good they were at screwing up the general enemy as sabotours. Loosening the enemies bows, weakening blades, killing off certain members of the enemy army or poisoning men and horses, none of it was below the Ninja


Any guy who can get really good with a weapon can be an assassin, Ninja's are Secret Agents. They could do a whole lot more than just kill a person, and thats what they were known for.


Ninja's can do a lot in this game. What Stan said in the PldvsNin thread about Ninja's being a non tank class that can tank is absolutely true. Ninja's can be damage dealer's, puller's, and tanks. I personally think Ninja's are in the same catagory as Warrior's, something inbetween dedicated Tanks (Paladin..) and dedicated Damage Dealer's. Although Warriors start to lean towards the damage dealer side, and Ninja's although they really seem on the same level as Warriors (Maybe even a little better) in the damage department, the fact they have a function like tanking with blink really overshadows anything else they can do. While you don't get maximum damage since your concentrating on tanking, putting yourself in a tanking position really takes the most advantage of *all* your skills. You can use everything at your disposal in that position. Fight/Enfeeble/Elemental Cripple/Utsusemi. And if the party actually wants you to, pull (Although I hate pulling as a tank. It can be done though)IN a damage dealer positon you can fight better, you don't really use enfeebles any more than you do in a tanking position and don't use Utsusemi as much. I personaly think Ninja's can make great damage dealer's, but they're incredible tanks at the same time and most of the time since there isn't really other alternatives, your the best candidate to tank.

[hocuspocus]

*blank stare*

i swear to god, this guy doesnt play he just posts books worth of trivial information.

-----


anyways, ninja is a decent damage dealer. People love to start rumors/ talk trash; and soon it just becomes an accepted part of everyones way of thinking of a race/class ...

look @ a drk or anyone with a 2 handed weapon thats considered a damage dealer -- once you get higher levels of Dual Weild, a Ninja will swing 4 times to their 1.

Add that damage up.

[neighbortaru]

/clap kiyosuki

nicely written. People really have to stop believing everything they watch on TV or movies and read some history.

[Gryff]

I'd like to say, ninjas can be damage dealers.


Lets compare weapons between oh lets say a ninja and a dark knight.

DOT is damage over time, I've multiplied by 1000x to make it a little more meaningful than 0.3522etc.

Death Scythe ( lvl 73 - highest non-rare-ex scythe )
vs
Fudo ( Highest regular damage no-effect Katana non-rare-ex)


Death Scythe
Damage: 97
Delay: 528

DOT: 1837

Fudo
Damage: 39
Delay: 227

DOT: 1718

Now dual wield is simply the delay added together.
Lets see what happens when we include 30% speed reduction on dual wield given at lvl 65.

The delay of the fudo becomes 159. ( 227x.7 )

Damage: 39
Delay 159

DOT: 2453



Rather a nice difference no?
But before everyone starts going ninja to deal damage, dark knight has physical attack up which probably compensates on a similar level, and also if tanking a ninja isnt hitting all the time.

Unless my maths is flawed, ninjas can damage rather well.

[neelon]

Don't forget that with a higher damage weapon you do more "relative" damage, that is damage after Mob's Defense and VIT have been substracted. So the damage output should be somewhat closer together actually, but still very nice DOT.

[Mitsu]

Damage froma ninja in FFXI stems from many different things, and quite frankly its not fair to compare ALL of them. For example a nin can sub rng (rang acc boosts) and spam manji or fuma shuriken. I have been real accurate with these stars and a ceartain gear set up. On high def mobs my range is 130-150 on low to med def mob 210-260. Combine that with the fact that you can throw shuriken as fast as a DRK can swing (sometimes faster). But who wants to do that over and over, and please do not equate cost into it because any ninja willing to use stars are also willing to raise guilds to make them. IMO a NIN is not complete until he/she can make the tools/stars the job needs. Back to the DOT, very nice number crunching.

[hocuspocus]

"ninja not complete unless they can synth their own stars"


hmm, no.

i'd rather buy the things, unfortunately none are ever for sale on my server. I'm not about to spend the necessary time to craft or even care about ninja stars anymore. Obviously, if you can get 68 levels without them, theyre not as needed as S/E thinks they should be.


I've used them they're great, but still, the effort and time to put into this just doesn't seem worth it in the end. If you want near same results at half the irration, go be a ranger.

[greysenn]

You can't necessairly use raw ratio though, because monster defense seems to really cut light hitting weapons short. It's a nice theory, but the defense breaks it.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by Gryff
[B]I'd like to say, ninjas can be damage dealers.


Lets compare weapons between oh lets say a ninja and a dark knight.

DOT is damage over time, I've multiplied by 1000x to make it a little more meaningful than 0.3522etc.

Death Scythe ( lvl 73 - highest non-rare-ex scythe )
vs
Fudo ( Highest regular damage no-effect Katana non-rare-ex)


Death Scythe
Damage: 97
Delay: 528

DOT: 1837

Fudo
Damage: 39
Delay: 227

DOT: 1718

Now dual wield is simply the delay added together.
Lets see what happens when we include 30% speed reduction on dual wield given at lvl 65.

The delay of the fudo becomes 159. ( 227x.7 )

Damage: 39
Delay 159

DOT: 2453

While this comparison is impressive, it doesn't match up to reality. Here's another example that's easy to relate to:

NIN using LV28 Fukuro (15/190) x2 (with DW2 haste of .85, it's 30/323)

vs.

RNG using LV27 Pirate's Gun + LV22 Bullet (66/840 total)

Using your calculation method (damage / delay * 1000), we come up with the following numbers:

NIN- 92.88 DOT
RNG- 78.57 DOT

Does this mean that a NIN with two 15 dmg katanas has an almost 20% damage advantage over a RNG using guns?

I sincerely doubt it.

As someone previously mentioned, your calculation ignores the fact that mob DEF is subtracted from each hit. You cannot crunch numbers in this fashion, when comparing two weapons with a huge discrepancy in base damage. You'll never get any meaningful results.

[Gryff]

we can always test it using ffxi parser.

[Baradak]

Originally posted by Gryff
we can always test it using ffxi parser.

And that will just show how wrong your numbers are. You also fail to take into account job traits such as DRK attack up traits and the differences in accuracy between classes.

You simply cannot divide damage by delay or vice versa and have a useful comparison between such diametrically opposite weapon types.