How Good is Ninja?

[Stanislav]

Originally posted by Ozymandis
We get Subtle Blow from our sub. I'm pretty sure I saw it listed on my Traits page

Yes but as far as I am concerned it's effect gets bettre by the level so a subbed version is probably gimped.

[Mitsu]

rofl....any war at 74 that CHOOSES to sub ninja to be a tank is in need of help.Just as thf sub adds little to ninja, nin sub add littlle to war. If on those rare ocassions that no PLD or NIN are available to pt (i suggest wait till one is available) War will have to tank. Hence the whole war/nin @ 74 thing.....but unless you fight tote for chain war/nin will become a MP sink no questions asked. People think that nin is overrated, while some may argue it is.............others argue that the skill of the player is what makes ninja what it is. To sum it up, if you enjoy workin your ass off and feeling good that you can hold ANY regular mob without fear of death, then ninja is for you. i stress the work hard part. People who give up on ninja truly shut themselves out of a good job with MAJOR payoffs (soloing Serket, Adamantois, King Arthro, Lumberjack)

[Ozymandis]

Originally posted by Mitsu
rofl....any war at 74 that CHOOSES to sub ninja to be a tank is in need of help.

There are several level 75 WAR/NINs on Fairy. I guess they need help?

[Navia]

My love for the job really comes from having to put alot of effort into it, i haven't found anything else that comes close.
Its alot of work to gilfarm so much for good gear and ninja tools, thinking to myself the other day 'where is the payoff?' - then someone in LS mentioned Serket was up and I started thinking about how I was going to solo it someday along with all those other NM's :sweat:
When xp party are over and the damage jobs like ranger and blm send me tells thanking me for being good tank keeps me going too :spin:

[DerekKnight]

Originally posted by Mitsu
rofl....any war at 74 that CHOOSES to sub ninja to be a tank is in need of help.

Hmmm lemme see...Dual Axes (more dmg per swing), AF that enhances Double Attack...Whole crap load of enmity in said AF if they so choose to wear it...Rampage or Mistral Axe for chains...some of the best armor in the game...good natural stats...and both Utsusemis...aggressor...

Where is the down side to this? Truly. I'm still trying to find it? I guess only thing would be a bit more time between swings...but, uh, that's about it?

Downside...downside...

[Navia]

Ninja is rated 'A' in parry and 'A' in evasion, warrior is 'C' and 'C-' rating in these.Parry gives the biggest edge in my opinion if you are fighting totetote+ monster

WAR/NIN will have less experience blink tanking period, blink tanking (as ninja main job tank) more than 37 levels does make a difference. Higher level ninja has experienced blink tanking monsters like antican,couerl,lizard,manticore,tonberry,etc and other monster type that are less forgiving if your timing sucks or you are relying on other pt member to enfeeble the monster since your nin sub enfeebles wont stick ;x
+Enmity is a bit overrated, i'm doing fine even without THF to fuidama :sweat: - war AF with +enmity is probably needed for war/nin since they will be taking more hits and losing hate faster.

Before I wondered myself if war/nin was maybe too good but I have seen they cant dodge crap (in the 50s, cant see them doing much better later on even with Ni) they lose shadows too fast compared to NIN/WAR.

[Mitsu]

lol duel axes...omg. have you seen a high lvl ninja with 2 fudo. War can only outdamage nin with ws and since war will have one HELL OF A DELAY with 2 axes tp gain will be considerably slower than a ninja . Not to mention that blinking also slows down tp gain, thats 2 strikes. War/Nin has to work 10x as hard as a ninja to stay alive when tanking dangerous mobs at 75. Ah did i mention that at 70 the damage a nin does get REAL high. Thats how nin keeps hate well if you do it right. For every swing of a 2hnd weapon a nin can get 2-4 hits in. The added delay of 2 1hand axes with sup DW ability is worse. Not saying that it is a bad choice outright, but i know NO war that choose to be a blink tank at 74+. If they have to, they do it reluctantly. Enmety is quite overated, hell a ninja can rip hate from a pld. Ive done it and have seen it done. As a ninja too little or too much hate will kill you, you must seek balance.

Edit: forgot to mention that MNK gives sooooooooooooo much more to war as sub than ninja , thats why NIN/WAR only come out of need not choice. Maybe a few that like weilding 2 axes but G axe pwns Axe

[DerekKnight]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mitsu
lol duel axes...omg. have you seen a high lvl ninja with 2 fudo. War can only outdamage nin with ws and since war will have one HELL OF A DELAY with 2 axes tp gain will be considerably slower than a ninja . Not to mention that blinking also slows down tp gain, thats 2 strikes. War/Nin has to work 10x as hard as a ninja to stay alive when tanking dangerous mobs at 75. Ah did i mention that at 70 the damage a nin does get REAL high. Thats how nin keeps hate well if you do it right. For every swing of a 2hnd weapon a nin can get 2-4 hits in. The added delay of 2 1hand axes with sup DW ability is worse. Not saying that it is a bad choice outright, but i know NO war that choose to be a blink tank at 74+. If they have to, they do it reluctantly. Enmety is quite overated, hell a ninja can rip hate from a pld. Ive done it and have seen it done. As a ninja too little or too much hate will kill you, you must seek balance.

I guess we'll agree to disagree. You know NO WAR/NIN on your server, while my server is FILLED with them, all doing quite well with zero complaints. Hell, we got THF/NIN blink tanks that practically run the damn AH. Yes, THF tanks, taking on HNMs/Dynamis. At 74+, it's not all that unrealistic to realize any good player can make a good job into a blink tank. Some better than others, and WAR is one of those jobs.

[quite]Edit: forgot to mention that MNK gives sooooooooooooo much more to war as sub than ninja , thats why NIN/WAR only come out of need not choice. Maybe a few that like weilding 2 axes but G axe pwns Axe

Ugh...pre 60, sure. Post? Nah. Useless traits (h2h) for a WAR. Abilities. Some good ones. Boost, Counter, Dodge, Focus, and Chakra at 70/35 I think. SAM will give you Meditate, Store TP, Third Eye. Meditate, even while only giving 60 TP, outweighs MNK sub 60+. The Ability to Break > Meditate > Skillchain is very, very much appreciated in pts. MNK sub is no slouch, but it falls behind /SAM for Warrior imho.

Oh yeah: Fudo - Dmg: 39 Dly: 227 Critical Hit Rate: 3% vs. Juggernaut - Dmg: 46 Dly: 288 HP: 18 STR: 3 AGI: -3 Attack: 30 and well, another weapon of your choosing. Like you said, you got the speed advantage, but the fact is, WAR/NIN is no slouch, and a very viable tank at 74+. If it wasn't, I wouldn't see 5-10+ WAR/NINs on 74+ on my server. All there is to it. If you haven't seen it (Navia, like I said, this is at 74+, not 50s. No one compares a NIN with only Utsu: Ichi, to one with Utsu: Ni. Only fair to do the same for WARs) I suggest you find one and ask them about it.

Why fight? Both rock. =)

[modnar]

About Duel Wield

BTW, Duel Axes IS good in gaining TP if TP is directly proportional to damage dealt.... I will copy-paste the following which I wrote in an other Thread.

I will agree that NIN vs /NIN is NOT the same degree, but it is still up there.

____________________________________

If you use with 1 weapon with 200 delay, to hit 4 times you need 800 delay time (8 seconds?).

If you use 2 weapons with 200 delay with the Duel Weild equation, to hit 2 times you need:

(200 * 2) * 0.85 (for Duel Weild 2) = 340 delay time.
To hit 4 times, you will have 680 delay time (6.8 seconds?)
If we say a battle takes 1 minute to finish:
Single Weild you get 7.5 attacks.
Duel Weild you get 8.8 attacks.

__________________________________

Let me take this a bit further:


Delay Duel Wield #2 = 0.85 * (Weapon #1 Delay + Weapon #2 Delay) /2 hits
Delay Duel Wield #4 = 0.70 * (Weapon #1 Delay + Weapon #2 Delay) /2 hits


Weapon Name: DMG: Delay: (Delay/DMG): (DMG/Delay)

Ascention (Synth): 79 : 480: (6.08) : (0.165)

Epee (Sword): 35 : 221: (6.31) : (0.158)
Epee (DW #2): 35 : 188: (5.37) : (0.186)
Epee (DW #4): 35 : 154: (4.40) : (0.230)

Fudo (Katana): 37 : 232: (6.20) : (0.160)
Fudo (DW #4): 37 : 162: (4.39) : (0.228)


For a Ninja:
So basicaly, if you are using Fudo (Katana) with DW #4, you are basicaly doing the same damage of a Synth (with 480 delay) that has a damage of 109+ (compared to 79 real Synth damage).

That is +30 weapon damage compared to a powerful Synth!!


For a /NIN:
If you are using a Epee (sword) with DW #2, you are basicaly doing the same damage of a Synth (with 480 delay) that has a damage of 89+ (compared to 79 real Synth damage).

That is +10 weapon damage compared to a powerful Synth!!



Did I miss something that you guys know? Is my logic flawed somehow? Please tell me...

Note:

I am calculating based on the DMG and Delay of weapons ONLY, not STR and Att etc. +30 (for Nin) and +10 (for /Nin) are the additions to the weapon DMG not the actual damage done. Just thought I would clarify that.

[modnar]

BTW, based on my argument above, is a Ninja ok to not use any powders? I am sort of poor at the moment, and have not figured a way to make money. That is why I am not a Ninja. Just wondering if I can just do this on a empty pocket. (remember: I am just wondering ^^)

[Deodorant]

Originally posted by Mitsu
rofl....any war at 74 that CHOOSES to sub ninja to be a tank is in need of help.Just as thf sub adds little to ninja, nin sub add littlle to war.

Urm ... no :sweat: ... in a tanking role, /nin is the best subjob for war at 74-75, nothing else comes close. 24-73 ... benefits of /mnk probably outweigh only utsusemi 1 from /nin. In a damage dealing role, then yes, /nin is a shitty subjob for war at all levels.

[tomiko]

War/nin does good dmg with dual axes. -_-;
Dual wield gives a chance for an extra attack during WS. That along with double attack makes my Rampages almost always more than 5 hits. I've done 900+ on Processionares with 8 hits. Wars get good skill in most weapons so they can dual wield for added stats as well. Juggernaut + Ridil + Kraken club anyone?

I can understand nin's being wary of war's stealing blink tank role post 74. But we do lose 1 shadow from Ni, and our evade parry isnt nearly as good. We can wear better armor, however.

[Navia]

WAR/NIN although powerful with rampage is a dangerous skillchain partner for an unprepared ninja that has 1 shadow or attempts to reblink during a skillchain.
Usually in the middle of a rampage hit-fest the monster will gain enough tp to activate an ability while everyone is magic bursting, getting ready to continue skillchain or whatver.

This happens *a lot* with warrior doing rampage - its a nice ws but that is its downside and i'd agree with stanislav that subtle blow is gimped with a ninja sub, based on how often monster abilities activate when being hit with rampage over a given period of time.

[Ozymandis]

Re: About Duel Wield

Originally posted by modnar
Did I miss something that you guys know? Is my logic flawed somehow? Please tell me...

In Final Fantasy XI, higher base damage will win out against lower delay.

On specific equip, Tabarzin+1 has a base damage of 50, and delay of 280. With Dual Wield II, this is 100 damage with a 478 delay. 9 less total damage than Fudo's, with about the same delay, but each hit will have 11 more base weapon damage.

Also, WAR has higher strength and because of AF should get Double Attack kicking in more.

[Mitsu]

OOO a damage debate...time for me to lot in ^^.
On Zm 5,8,10 the thf in our pt had a program that kept track of DOT's, this is also the time when i FIRST got 2 fudos. According to his data my DOT was greater than the DRK/WAR and the THF/WAR for all 3 battles. Before i had 2 fudos ie. pre-69 my DOT was JUST below THF/NIN. The Duel Weilding axes may look good on paper but compare a NIN at 70 with Decent to good equip and a war at 70 the NIN dot MAY be greater most of the time if not all. Plus that 6% increase in criticals is REALLY noticable even on totetote+, I WILL critical 5-8 times per mob thats a garuntee ...at least when i have played that is. Also about delay...sorry to say but nin at 70 will attack with BOTH katanas at around the same speed as a 1 handed axe and whenever double attack kicks in it only adds to the amount of attack in that time frame. Going from there..that is WITHOUT haste or any haste equipment, which at 72 ninja can get One more duel weild add on, 12-15% haste (dependant on your gill) and at 75 that haste bumps up to +20%. Bear in mind that while all this is goin on a nin can still tank real well without giving up anny acc OR evade and still do decent damage.

Moral of the story is...Dont F!@#K with a nin in the duel weild department, the NIn will win if he/she knows how to take advantage of it. Ah..havent posted in a while back to lvl grinding