Hmmm bad news for Utsusemi: San?

[hocuspocus]

aww another whiney paladin.


go away gimp.

[Baradak]

Originally posted by hocuspocus
aww another whiney paladin.


go away gimp.

Excellent rhetoric there, Hocus. Would you like to through out anymore ad hominem? He wasn't even asking for anything remotely paladin related.

[Beener]

"Why do you need refresh when your whm is using 50 or 100mp a fight?"

You need refresh still if you have a blm or smn...

...and funny how you managed to ignore dispel. I'm sure when your damage dealers are hitting robber crabs and the like for 10, you'll burn through a lot more powder.

In any case, i'm still curious how: "...we'd risk making Red Mage, Dragoon, Summoner, and (post class here)obsolete because we can paralyze and poison more efficiently."

[Deodorant]

Heh, Weezingpipes, Lan'Urk, and others have contricuted some nice points in a civil manner, but apparently the best that Mr. rabid ninja fanboy (read: hocuspocus) can say is:

aww another whiney paladin.

go away gimp.

I don't usually make retorts about a person's age and/or maturity, but it seems that you are rather lacking in both.

[leii]

ummm guys dont forget subtle blow is coming out soon and that might make ninjas unable to tank. since we are not 100% sure wat it is it could be a hate lowering effect.

[Tokri]

NIN and MNK already have Subtle Blow, as of the last major patch. NIN gets it at lvl 15, not sure about MNK. It actually helps tanking by making your melee hits give less TP to the mob. This was implemented just to fix a bug that they haven't taken care of for a while. That bug is since you basically have two attacks per round (NIN and MNK), you were giving the mob more TP than someone who was hitting it once per round. This just corrected the problem.

As for this topic, I've been leveling my NIN as of late, and with just utsusemi: ichi, I've been a better tank than I remember playing as my PLD. That may be because I can afford better equipment now, or just more experience, but there's something wrong there. I've died less with NIN, and gotten more exp/hour because I do twice as much damage as a PLD. PLD is supposed to be the best tank, ceterus peribus (sp), with WAR and NIN coming close as alternatives, but the way it is now, NIN is a better thank, IMO. I think NIN were supposed to be a support class, like.. as a RDM is the melee of the mages, NIN was supposed to be the mage of the melees. Something along those lines.

[Mitsu]

I feel the same way Tokri, I felt the ninja was the rdm of the melee class. But even so, leaving out some NI ninjutsu and the whole Sann line is not even cool. How would a blm feel if they got water,ice,fire,lighting 3 but only get stone 2. Or better yet only get sleep1. Nin is not finished, if it makes waves and makes ninja unbalanced so be it. Look at DRK, they replace THF at 60, wheres the balance in that. I admit drg and sam need more work, BUT nin needs to be finished. Also about Utsu sann, there are MANY ways to make it HARDER to use in heat of pt. Lastly , SO WHAT if Sann makes nin hardly to get hit, a PLD def is absolute is it not. DOES a pld def go away after 11 hits, negative. So why is it so hard to accept a ninja that doesnt get hit, not to mention that there are some that can achieve that now. Sann would be a cheaper alternative and would make more players actually want to lvl ninja past the sub-job stage

[Tokri]

That's true, it seems I forgot to say that yeah, the ninjutsus spells should be finished. They do need to balance a few things, like maybe increase the recast time or fix the actual shadows in some way. I think NIN is so much more of a fun job to play if it worked as a support job, enfeebling more and maybe giving effects like 1 shadow or something to a party member - that would be cool.

[Lil Dreamer]

Originally posted by Lan'Urk
Ninja is the last Expansion class that has any room to complain. How can you say that your job lacks anything compared to DRGs and SAMs, Oh please dont be ridiculous. Ninja is very overpowered as it is, add another utsusemi, and they will be able to cycle throught them indefinatly... meaning NEVER having even a remote chance of being hit.... you have to be blind to not see the unbalance.

I think SE needs to take a look, and do something about the poor DRGs before they give yet another candybar to Ninjas...

~Lanurk

the balance comes down to hate control. while a PLD will get hit in a battle, they can control hate better. while a NIN with Utsusemi: Ichi, Ni and San while not getting hit will have a tougher time holding hate(and eventually will always need a THF in the PT). i think that's a rather fair trade. not taking damage means jack if hate is not held, while holding hate is jack without being able to cure/avoid damage.

i agree that they need t o fix DRGs, but i doubt the exploit of Utsusemi is a "candybar" that was given by SE to NINs.

hell, in all honesty i don't even care about Utsusemi: San. i just want the NI line of Ninjutsu done so i can hold hate better. it's already a challenge enough as it is.

[Certar]

Originally posted by Weezingpipes


Easy. Means certain monsters (like ones that hit faster or monk types) gives you more room for error, which means being hit less often. Hell not just those types, anything, it simply means more room for error which means a mediocre NIN can avoid damage absolutely forever unless they are sleeping or something. As it is, anyone who claims NIN is a riskier tank is full of shit. Group with a THF or someone with THF sub who can deal solid ws damage, and its not a problem. Even without that I'm sure you can find a rich JP NIN (or multiple) to group with who has the equipment to not need that extra bit of hate a THF or THF subbed job adds.

I have a nutty idea for NIN. Make it a better pulling job, since there are no "real" puller jobs, and there is a shit load of content that is unused simply because of bad design - namely, there are many areas of the game which aren't pullable in an exp setting without piles of adds, making exping off them absolutely not practical. Improve WS damage, improve melee damage a bit, make the ninjitsus a lot more viable, throwing ws etc, maybe some ninjistu which lowers assist ranges on monsters going with the puller theme, leaving the highest version of it to NIN so they retain that role as the best, but lower versions that aren't nearly as effective so other jobs might use NIN as a sub to be better pullers. Those are good ideas. In addition to that, add a hate removal component to the Utsusemi line, so every time its used the NIN loses a chunk of hate - significant enough that they are not at all viable tanks cuz even with THF help or WAR JA's they couldn't keep hate and still take no damage. Utsusemi should be more so of a "save your ass" type spell than invulnerability basically, at least thats my opinion, and quite a few players as well. Then again really, improved damage output just makes NIN better soloers too. I've seen NIN solo quite easily now, it just takes a long ass time, but they always win.

I *do* think the game needed another viable tanking job besides PLD and WAR, but just by current design, NIN really shouldn't be it. Yes, the ability to consistantly take 0 damage is very powerful, and yes, it needs to be changed.

Tons of people believe in this. If Squenix could "fix" NIN to be like this I would be extremely happy as would many, many other people.

[Navia]

Originally posted by Weezingpipes

I have a nutty idea for NIN. Make it a better pulling job, since there are no "real" puller jobs, and there is a shit load of content that is unused simply because of bad design - namely, there are many areas of the game which aren't pullable in an exp setting without piles of adds, making exping off them absolutely not practical. Improve WS damage, improve melee damage a bit, make the ninjitsus a lot more viable, throwing ws etc, maybe some ninjistu which lowers assist ranges on monsters going with the puller theme, leaving the highest version of it to NIN so they retain that role as the best, but lower versions that aren't nearly as effective so other jobs might use NIN as a sub to be better pullers. Those are good ideas. In addition to that, add a hate removal component to the Utsusemi line, so every time its used the NIN loses a chunk of hate - significant enough that they are not at all viable tanks cuz even with THF help or WAR JA's they couldn't keep hate and still take no damage.

What is with this puller crap people are constantly suggesting.
RNG,THF,SMN with carby or just about anyone with knowledge of what is aggressive, links and knows how monster pathing in the zone behaves can competently pull. Most content goes unused because too many people are lazy to go all the way to castle vahzl, fei'yin or some other out of the way place that doesn't have crabs,beetles,crawlers

Originally posted by Weezingpipes

Utsusemi should be more so of a "save your ass" type spell than invulnerability basically, at least thats my opinion, and quite a few players as well.

there are a number of monster abilities that completely avoid utsusemi that silence/petrify or do damage - yeah i'm tanking like i've got PLD 2hr hour 24/7 lol...

And we already have a 'save your ass' ability - its called Mijin Gakure :p Actually I refer to it as 'get out of crappy pt' or ninja dezone :spin:

Originally posted by Weezingpipes

Then again really, improved damage output just makes NIN better soloers too. I've seen NIN solo quite easily now, it just takes a long ass time, but they always win.

hmm over 4k people on my server.
/sea nin 57-75 all
hmm results return 8-15 people, one of them being me.
Yeah legions of ninjas are everywhere single handedly wiping beastmen off the face of vana'diel....

BST are soloing everywhere and pretty much always winning, i fail to see the problem because ninja spends gil to solo and its not efficient or completely risk-free.
DRG like yourself can solo(subbing mage job) and get up to xp chain #3 even with penta tp return nerfed at higher levels so I don't see your point still....

Originally posted by Weezingpipes

I *do* think the game needed another viable tanking job besides PLD and WAR, but just by current design, NIN really shouldn't be it. Yes, the ability to consistantly take 0 damage is very powerful, and yes, it needs to be changed.

So you propose removing the feasability of nin/war tanking because a 4 melee +brd+rdm backline works?(oh no, no whm in party = heresy!)
Those whm partying with nin are so miserable casting haste and skilling up divine magic/club skill instead.

I suppose your vision of Tanking jobs involve the tank taking a sound ass beating by a monster so a whm can dump cureV+regenII on them all day to feel needed. While you are at it, why not advocate the tired main tank + multiple healer rotation mechanic from everquest, yeah thats loads of challenge and fun for all

[Kiyosuki]

I sense "wonderful things" creeping into this thread.


I love Mijin Gakure, but a small part of me wishes Ninja's had a more battle usable 2 hour, or at least make Mijin Gakure do way more damage than it does now. I mean, if your sacrificing your life for the sake of a "last hurrah" kind of deal, you might as well do insanely high damage instead of the crap Gakure brings you now. I mean, the cost of that damage is really high so it only makes sense for it to be something spectacular. Go nuclear on the monster's ass if things are looking grim.

If someone sacrifices they're life, the ultimate price, to attempt to cripple the enemy with one last desperate major blow, its just wrong that a desperate, 2 hour ability like that is capable of going as low as 80-100 damage. Don't you agree? For now its almost as selfish as Perfect Dodge, but at least that has some potential use for the party effort.

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Certar


Tons of people believe in this. If Squenix could "fix" NIN to be like this I would be extremely happy as would many, many other people.

Spoken like a true non ninja noob =P Why would you want to take something that is a unique, challenging and efficient tank and turn it into a mundane, directionless, dine-a-dozen melee? The only thing that needs fixing is your idea that ninja is wrong. If you dont like it, or you think its too hard to play, then play something else No way should SE ever change ninja, they already got enough easy jobs for all those 'tons of people' like you to play.

[Bigokk McGock]

While you are at it, why not advocate the tired main tank + multiple healer rotation mechanic from everquest, yeah thats loads of challenge and fun for all

What about the tired main "impervious to all melee attacks" tank that is Ninja?

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Bigokk McGock


What about the tired main "impervious to all melee attacks" tank that is Ninja?

Utsusemi is not invincible. You have to have skill, luck and gil to make sure that when that attack comes you take no damage. Take away any of those three and it wont happen. Arn't you a war/nin yourself? You should not be asking such a rhetorical question