Simple ways to improve /THF.

[shaunathan]

Originally posted by Trimpton
Firstly since Nin is all passive abilities and THF is all active abilites you miss out on alot of 30+ active ablites by being NIN/THF.

... Secondly because you get SATA at 30 as THF and 60 as Nin/thf .. and the dmg is less.

You would also miss out on alot of spam dmg by not getting Triple Attack.

NIN/THF would be a puller
THF/NIN would be a dammage dealer.

two different taylorings.

[Kiyosuki]

Unfortunatly the thing with that is that Thf/Nin can be a puller AND a damage dealer. Ninja's get the two Utsusemi's far earlier than any other using /Nin, but the thing is is when your pulling, you arn't going to be taking that many hits. Thf/Nin using Utsusemi will have more than enough shadows to make it back since they have the recast option incase Ichi wears off, which isn't often. Plus Thieves get Hide, Flee at a much lower level, and when they get there the damage they inflict is greater in single strikes. Now Ninja's are fine puller's if they have to absolutely pull (Though if they're tanking they should save as many shadows as they can) But Thief/Ninja has more options to dodge the enemy for a short period of time and get back swiftly, and Ranger/Ninja have scan, Utsusemi, AND very long range. Both of these classes generally pull greater than a Ninja main can.

The thing with Nin/Thf is well...I have an analogy for it.

It'd be like....in Metal Gear. If Snake always had the option of using the stealth camo, plus everything else he can do. Nin/Thf can do well, they're not bad. But it'd be like Snake using all his weapons and skills but ignoring the camo completely. So he's still badass, but a potentially great ability that could make him even deadlier and better is kind of wasted. Utsusemi is such a great ability, that while /Thf can do great its like cheating the class of one of its potentially greatest abilities. Its not the full package.

I'm not gonna glorify blink tanking though, because its done so much and I know what people mean to look into are ways Ninja's can do damage. Personally I think Nin/Thf functions good but is barking up the wrong tree when it comes to attempting to make Ninja's go the most damage they can. I think I'll make a topic on that.

But as far as Nin/Thf does go, my biggest suggestion for it is that its a very nice backup sub option for Ninja's to have. I think if you use your Ni debuff's correctly and use the right WS and Sneak (And trick later) you can do good damage. Plus your Shuriken will do more damage because of slightly higher agility and dex. But its not a huge difference, and generally Nin/War, Rng/Nin, and Thf/Nin can do everything Nin/Thf can do but better. But the thing is they all specialize in one thing or another, and Nin/Thf can do a bit of all they're strengths all in one, just at only half of they're potential each. Nin/thf is good if there's none of the above classes available, or if a party needs one member to be a multi tasker. Just remember that the above classes will generally be picked first as they can be paired up for better results.

Thats the best advice I can give on it. I keep Thief as a sub option in my info along side Warrior and it has been asked for once. My personal opinion is still that Nin/Thf isn't the Ninja main's best fit for even damage dealing, but it has its uses definitely. If one plays Nin/Thf, instead of going crazy with evasion gear like Nin/War's tend to do go after lots of these stats in this order, Agi, Dex, Str/Atk. Ranged attack or accuracy si good too. You want your Sneak to do as much damage as it can, and you want to hit everytime you can for sufficient damage. Shurikens are a must, as are every variety of Ninjutsu. Use the paralyze/Slow/blind Ninjutsu like there's no tomorrow to ensure your tank takes less damage, and use Shuriken at well timed spots and if you have the Ni elementals, use them in succession to weaken enemy elemental defense considerably. Like Earth to Wind, Wind to Ice etc. Then always combine your Sneak with a Weapon Skill, Blade:Retsu, Fast Blade are the best candidates. I'd suggest using an Elemental WS that goes with enemy weakness, but thats more useful for Nin/War. As Nin/Thf you want to do the most physical damage you can plus go crazy with enfeebling to make sure your weight in the party is felt.

Thats the best advice I can give. Once again know that Nin/War, Thf's, and Rng's do the things you can do but much better. But you can be a bit of a backup combination of things so you'll have to try extra hard to put your weight int othe party. use your versatility to try to make up for the fact most of your strengths are half of what they'res are individually.

[fyrewyre]

(reply to page 1 post)

not interested in the sneak attack, shurukens settle that instantly. Everytime i read a post by Kiyosuki im amazed that there are still people who can think outside the box. your input is greatly appreciated here. i just started nin and already i see how thf can help but after a few days of playing thf subbed and main im not interested. the lack of def (and good tank) is making it hard to play or even keep focus on thf. im going for nin/rng and as an elvaan sneak attack would be ok but not neccesary. if they denerfed the sneak as a sub then most people wont have to switch to a better sub for nin. i noticed there is a problem with nin having very little active abilities (lol i dont use em anway, im a rdm.)


edit: if throwing had a SP WS for nin, then they would be damage dealers without a doubt...maybe this is a reason they didnt add this to NIN (yet)

[Trimpton]

First -

There is no position in a balanced party for a "puller", want to know why? *ANY* Job can pull! Any job.(Period) And I bet with my Rng/Nin Ill pull better than you, with my larger range and quick steals with shadowbind.

Any job in this game can pull - the only thing one has to know is how mobs aggro. There is no job ability that lets you know its just common sense. So to say Nin/Thf is a puller is not only incredibly stupid its illogical and doesnt fit a balanced party because no one needs a "puller" job.

Second -

Nin/thf isnt dmg dealer - I dont care if you spam suirikens you arent going to make a Rng spamming his bow then pulling off a sidewinder - or a Drk doing reg hits then pulling off his Guillotine - Nin is not a damage dealer. They dont deal dmg that even comes close to Rng / Drk / Mnk / Sam -- Not even close. You spam dmg, but its terribly little dmg that doesnt ammount. Monks spam dmg and its good dmg - Contrast and compare.


Ninjas dont do dmg - Any job can pull - Well lets come to a conclusion they make such good tanks that plds want them nerfed because they make the obsolete. Every group expects a ninja to blink tank because its such a mana saver. Wonder what Ninjas are ... Well Ill give you a hint ... It starts with a "T" and ends with a "ank" ... I dont care if they were designed for being a tanker they are now so live with it. If you dont want to be a tank switch to a dmg dealer job because Ninja isnt one.

[PhoR]

Only Square-Enix knows what Ninjas were meant to do. The players have found a way to make the Ninja a very effective tank, but who says that's all they can be? If a Ninja is pigeon-holded as a tank, then WAR will be all they are able to sub forever.

So how is this bad? Show me a pld that subs anything other than war. so should they change pld so that they can sub other things just because some players feel "pigeon-holed" to play a tank as pld?

your argument is moot.

[Mitsu]

LOL the reason why RNG does sooo much damage IS bc of the WS they use. I can easily get 120-170 damage PER shuriken, thats without rapid shot or WS. Compared to a RNG just spamming arrows I do same or just a LITTLE less....although stars critical alot more than arrows ^.-. Put simply adding throw ws would add more balance to NIN (A+ rank in a weapon with no WS is just plain absurd) Blink tanking is NOT easy at higher lvls, and it can be a great asset. BUT, all ninja here know how boring it can be, and the only options S-E has left open are either way to expensive or too hard to pull off. One last point if you dont even attempt to guild, no matter if you have 30k or 3 mill ninja will break you. LOL thats only if you wanna excel past the "Blink Tank " reputation

[JexIntrepid]

really i feel some AF have effects that work only at night.

If they want to buff ninjas to be more efficient sneakers at night, they should buff their enfeebling at night, and make it that SA stack + dmg would be 50% more at night, because of ninja's better efficiency at night.

just my 2 pennies

[Trimpton]

Mitsu if your bored with your job why not switch? No one is forcing you to play Ninja.

And no we deal more dmg because most of our active and passive skills are geared towards Dmg Dealing.

If Ninja got throwing WS that would equal to Ranger, Ninja would just be a ranger, not only just being a ranger they would be a ranger who could *blink tank*. So they would have not only the amazing ability of Ranger damage using the same way of doing it but they would have the amazing ability of tanking. While we are at it lets give them the power to fly.

Mitsu Iam sorry but your arguement is just lame, Its almost as lame if a Whm was complaining about having to heal because its borring. Well play a differnet job then. If you dont want to tank then do NOT play a PLD NIN or WAR because when you are invited into a balanced group you will most likely be picked to tank.

Blink tanking is hard? Then pick a easier job, it wasnt supposed to be easy. Its so effective Whm's can kick back and heal few times per battle, something that good doesnt come easy. Dont complain because what you do is hard.

[Tsubame]

Originally posted by PhoR


So how is this bad? Show me a pld that subs anything other than war. so should they change pld so that they can sub other things just because some players feel "pigeon-holed" to play a tank as pld?

your argument is moot.

Best PLD I ever partied with was a Taru PLD/WHM.

As far as Nin, do with what you will with it. Trimpton, don't be a jerk about it. You know what's hard? Playing a non-conformist build. Trying to prove to the hordes that your build can work, even if it is different. Trying to set yourself apart from the crowd. Being unique.

THAT'S hard. Blink-tanking is expensive, but it's not necessarily hard, as it's just conforming to the standard. You won't have to deal with ignorant masses who think you are only there to tank. And while it might not work well, that's up to the individual to decide. If somebody doesn't want to conform to one of like 20 pre-made combos out of hundreds (all job combinations), they don't have to.

Finally, the best players I have found, are often the 'weird' job combos. They HAVE to be good to make up for the fact that they can't just copy tried and true strategies, they have to think for themselves. When they finally get a party and excel in it, word will get out. Eventually, maybe more combos will start to become accepted. However, it's the "This job is only for this" attitude that hurts that.

War can be damage dealers, they can make tanks. There are even 'ghetto Paladin' Warrior/WHMs out there (That actually works well, if played decently and with good equip)

Nin CAN be damage dealers, they can make tanks. They can be awesome pullers, or perhaps just an all-around jack for your party.

Granted, the cookie-cutter combos are like that for a reason, they work. But you bought the game, your paying for it, nobody outside of Square can dictate how you play it. Sure, you may get less PTs, but non-conformists have to think like that sometimes.

Think outside the box, it'll do you well sometimes.

[Kiyosuki]

Such venom Trimp. Why let it loose so?

Throw WS would hardly endanger Ranger's from having they're place taken, because of the very reason you've said too, those job traits and abilities. Quite frankly a Ranger isn't complete yet until they get SideWinder and Slugshot I think, which no one else is going to get so I hardly think it would be bad.

Its pretty easy to see why someone would mention something like that since Ninja AF is so Throwing + heavy. The Relic Armor seems to be going a different way totally by increasing effectiveness of regular melee. I personally think the programmer's arn't entirely sure what they want this job to be. (Regardless of what the players think) It must be tricky since this job's abilities are spread so evenly.

Personally if anything could be done to improve Ninja offense in a unique way, its either a passive to increase the chance of Critical hit %, passives to have your weapon inflict status ailments with or without an additional effect on the actual item, something to temporarilly increase your hit speed by an % for maybe 40 seconds or so (Like a Last Resort/Berserk type of thing), or some more unique enfeebles. Any of those would be pretty subtle additions I'd love to have.

[leii]

once a ninja reaches like 72 or something dont they get 37 damage or 40 damage katanas (i forgot). if they dual wield that would make them hit 4 times while another person for example a dark knight hit once. and the higest damage scythe for a dark knight is a 99 damage sword. (if i remember right). that would make a ninja have the highest dps since it would do around 160 while a darkknight does 99. but i'm only talking about dps i am not taking any ws in account. please give feed back i hope i am right.

[Mitsu]

LOL let me re-phrase..Hard=STRESSFULL at my lvl fighting totetote+ mobs the only thing you will look at is the text box. Counting shadows for 5-7 hrs straight is..well..tireing. While your are tired your other pt members are not. Hmmm Kiyo was dead on about the AF...LOOK AT, it adds agi, throw acc. throw atk, and throw skill +........even the ninja JSE adds +10 throw skill. And couple that with the stars that are available one would think, hey, im gonna be athrow ninja. When i say throw ws, im not wanting massive damage, all i want is somthing to make my efforts feel complete. Its just like saying, RNG has A+ rank in archery and marksmanship and the have NO ws. That would be horrible right?...downright unthinkable. Alot of ninja feel that way, throw has alot of potential, but it cant be realized without a ws. Although I hate conforming to anything, coockie cutter PT DO work, the only time a ninja is free to sub somthin other than thf or war is in a HNM environment. There are a few HNM/NM i will gladly pass to a PLD (Aquarius = dead ninja tank...unless your 72+ with scorp harness..Roc/Simurgh is a pain as well)

[Trimpton]

Tsubame

The reason people use the combos they do is because they are by far the most effecitve combos for EXP PT which you will be doing probably more than 90% of this game. If your info is right your whole arguement is invalid because strict party balance really comes into play I would say about 40+ .. If you want to get 4-5k exp an hour you are going to have to do your job to the best of its abilites wheater it tank or dmg deal and by subbing non effective subs like whm to rng or whm to pld (Losing defender) and that person isnt doing their specific role the whole group will lose out.. So your stupid decisions and choices will make everyone around you suffer.

So your non-conformist job combos arent hard for you - just the rest of us.

Kiyo - Point taken on throwing ws. Sam can sidewinder, Ninja can Slugshot.

Leii - Monks still have better DPS with things like kick, plus they have good WS. Probably not after the patch though ^^ Since tp return is probably gonna suck.

Mitsu - Okay its stressful, everyone knows that but its also very effective, dont expect something that effective to come easy. Sure some HNM (Aq hits way to fast) Ninjas cant take but there are still many they can. I have nothing against a ninja who throws, Iam just trying to say throwing isnt going to make up for the fact that you should still be blink tanking because throwing alone isnt going to compensate for the dmg you could get from a "real" dmg dealing class. And btw we have A- Archery and Marksmenship =\

[Kiyosuki]

Throwing Weapon Skills, or making throwing a tiny bit more prolific in general would be very nice for Ninja tanks. Its not asking for one hit kill or high damage numbers or anything, just a little push in offense like that would make Ninja's be able to possibly keep hate so much better.

Without Fuidama and a Ranger in the party circulating elemental Ninjutsu, and casually casting an enfeeble at given intervals, and your regular melee if it hits fast and consistently along with the occasional Shuriken can keep hate pretty well, but if there were just a tiny little extra bit of damage thrown in there it'd make hate keeping very good. And the beauty of it is it wouldn't be abusable by far since it would depend on the player's actual skill and patience. It wouldn't make the job noob friendly at all since Throwing's still annoying as hell to bring up. Most Ninja main's want throwing WS's not mostly for flexibility but mostly because of that. It wouldn't be an overpowering thing at all, it would fit into its gameplay style now, and it would just be so generally useful to have.

[Tsubame]

Originally posted by Trimpton
Tsubame

The reason people use the combos they do is because they are by far the most effecitve combos for EXP PT which you will be doing probably more than 90% of this game. If your info is right your whole arguement is invalid because strict party balance really comes into play I would say about 40+ .. If you want to get 4-5k exp an hour you are going to have to do your job to the best of its abilites wheater it tank or dmg deal and by subbing non effective subs like whm to rng or whm to pld (Losing defender) and that person isnt doing their specific role the whole group will lose out.. So your stupid decisions and choices will make everyone around you suffer.

So your non-conformist job combos arent hard for you - just the rest of us.

Things like BLM/WAR would do nothing effective sure, and hurt the party...and while a Nin/War or Sam/War or whatever may be the best combo, there are other combos that still work while not getting 100% the job can do. Where RNG/WHM may not benefit very much, I've seen PLD/WHM played very well before, it's a very viable combo.

To me though, the game is a lot more than XP grinding. The most important aspect of the game is the social aspect. When you are done with the game (it'll happen someday) that's the only thing you are going to take off of it. And with an unusual, though still effective job combo, you might get lots of people starting a conversation from "Oh your a blah? I thought blah always subbed blah. What made you think of doing that, does it work well?". I suppose different people get different things from it, and if somebody wants to puerly XP grind, they are free to...unless I'm playing my BRD/WHM at the time, I likely won't get an invite from that party, but that's okay.

Personally, I'd rather be in the party that jokes around and talks, rather than the party that pulls in 5000 XP an hour, but rushes at a breakneck pace and doesn't say a word to each other.

Personally, this game is about 70% social, 15% crafting, 10% questing/missions, and 5% XPing and gil farming. At least for me. But hey, if you are 70% XPing, more power to you...it's what you enjoy. I likely won't be the best canidate for your pts, unless I'm playing my Bard, as I said. I put that warning in my seek info, when looking for a party with an unconvential combo.