If you could alter something about the Ninja..

[qweezy]

Originally posted by Mewnie
Of all the ninja I've PTed with, the ratio of shihei to other powders used is 20:1 on average, that tells me something right there...a ninja could probably get away with just utsumei ichi and ni all the way to 75, since that is all that's expected of them

They are doing what they do best. Maybe you should ask Rangers to put down thier bow cause all they do is shoot with thier bow and get away with it all the way to lvl 75, maybe you should ask the Monk to stop using his fist and use a sword cause he is using too much of his fist and he's PISSING you off! Maybe you should ask the Paladin to stop tanking cause he's always tanking and you don't like it! And maybe...maybe...

Blah, why bother.

[Tsubame]

If Ninjas really are 125% tank, 75% attack, 100% debuff, and 50% utility, then they would be invited for things besides Blink-tanking, right? If this is true, I rest my argument, and you win. But it isn't, is it?


If I went out and started playing a Nin/Thf (A seemingly logical combo) how many invites would I get compared to the Nin/War? The only part he does better is the blink-tanking, but that seems to be what people want Ninja for, isn't it?

I don't want them to be overall stronger or weaker. I want their Utsusemi have a longer timer, and maybe tweak up their throwing a bit. Small changes are best before major changes.

I could very well just be rambling stupidly...but it seems to me right now that a Galka Ninja would be the best race/job combo, since they are tanks and all. My main point has been this, and remains this. Ninja are stealth assassins (popular culture), psychological covert ops (historical), or fast-attack debuff support (FF typically). The last is what I would shoot for, since this is an FF game. Never, in any mythology, story, game, or ANYTHING have Ninja been front-line troops taking hits for their army/team/group.

I understand the premise of Utsusemi, confusing your opponent with illusions and causing them to miss, and it'd be a great "uh-oh, I pulled too much hate, but I'll be okay for a few hits" spell, but just needs a longer timer. If WHMs got higher level blink spells past their Blink, they could tank just a well...would people argue for them as tanks in that case?

[qweezy]

Originally posted by Tsubame
If Ninjas really are 125% tank, 75% attack, 100% debuff, and 50% utility, then they would be invited for things besides Blink-tanking, right? If this is true, I rest my argument, and you win. But it isn't, is it?

If I went out and started playing a Nin/Thf (A seemingly logical combo) how many invites would I get compared to the Nin/War? The only part he does better is the blink-tanking, but that seems to be what people want Ninja for, isn't it?

Most jobs are good at one thing, and it happens to be tanking for the Ninja. Take the Monk for example, they are 150% attack, 75% tank, 0% Debuff, 0% Utility. See how it balance out? You can't make a job that is good at everything. People expect you to tank because it's your job, because it's where the Ninja excels. If you invite a Monk, what else would you want him do? Be happy the Ninja can be a godly tank, while still having alot of nice abilities to play around with, other jobs aren't that fortunate.

Originally posted by Tsubame
I could very well just be rambling stupidly...but it seems to me right now that a Galka Ninja would be the best race/job combo, since they are tanks and all. My main point has been this, and remains this. Ninja are stealth assassins (popular culture), psychological covert ops (historical), or fast-attack debuff support (FF typically). The last is what I would shoot for, since this is an FF game. Never, in any mythology, story, game, or ANYTHING have Ninja been front-line troops taking hits for their army/team/group. [/B]

Historical Ninjas never ran with a bunch of healers, nukers and tanks either. So unless they buff Ninjas to the point where they can solo for good exp, I don't see how you can be happy with this class with your current mind set.

Originally posted by Tsubame
I understand the premise of Utsusemi, confusing your opponent with illusions and causing them to miss, and it'd be a great "uh-oh, I pulled too much hate, but I'll be okay for a few hits" spell, but just needs a longer timer. If WHMs got higher level blink spells past their Blink, they could tank just a well...would people argue for them as tanks in that case? [/B]

Which is exactly why WHM only have blink? If Utsusemi were meant for screw ups, there would be no need for the Ni version, because the Ichi version cover screw-ups just fine. SE put in the Ni version for a reason, so that a Ninja could tank. Don't be suprised if they come out with Utsusemi: San in the next expansion.

[Tsubame]

Don't be surprised if Ninja gets changed in the next version either...

I still stand by that Ninja were not intended as tanks...I've listed my reasons, I've made my points clear, there isn't much else I can say. Ninja are about stealth, drawing attention to yourself and trying to get the monster to swing at you isn't stealth, it's what a Warrior or Paladin would do. If theme isn't enough reason for you, there's nothing else I can say. (Sure, Ninja didn't go running around with White and Black mages historically either, but this isn't about who they are with, but about the Ninja himself. Wizards are much like Black Mages traditonally, and healers or priests like a White Mage, there's no flaw there)

If after the next major expansion revision they don't fix Ninjas, or they buff Utssusemi, I'll agree that they intend it. Or add +hate to their AF armor. Of course, the day that stealth assassins get a bonus to their armor to draw more attention to themselves is the day I'm quitting FFXI. Even if I'm not playing a Ninja, that's just...inane.

[Vivid]

General Disclaimer
How did this topic go from things you could alter about ninja to the good old nin/war brawl? Honestly, don't bicker over such bull shit. Try not to pick fights here, please. Not like Im a moderator or anything, it's just going on too long already. Let's try and be more on topic plzkthxbye.
End of Disclaimer

:a few notes that i edited it:
the ninja armor at higher levels looks like they were, infact, intended to be tanks... i'll admit it. they have flame spike, thunder spike, etc. also, the level ?64? equipment has hate+ on it. HOWEVER , just because the armor has these things on it, it doesn't mean that you have signed a death-pact to be a tank.

=======>thief is an accepted subjob for ninja, the JP invite you.. they invite you many many times<=================

love,
vivid

[Tsubame]

We have been discussing things that need to be altered about Ninja, or at least, I am and he is discussing that it doesn't need to be, but it is still quite relevant for both of us.

It's more about Blink being reduced or other things being enhanced then about /WAR. I was just using that an example.

EDIT: If Nin/Thf is an accepted combo, and they aren't expected to blink-tank, but rather do other Ninja tasks, then I rest my case...and I'm quite content. I'd just like to see some of their throwing aspects enhanced then, leave the rest the same if it's true that blink-tanking isn't expected 100% of the time.

[Tito]

ok i know this was stated not to do at the beginning fo the post but what hte hell,its a wish list, right?
why shouldnt the ninja have a WS with insta-kill? u could have it do critical damage with a chance of killing instantly based on tp%
kinda like 1 inch punch but deal death. and i agree with u all that ninja need better sneaking abilitys. ninja w/o stealth=dead ninja

and as far as ninjas not bieng assasians they did whetever. they were closer to modern day mercenarys than anything else.if the job paid they would do it.whether it was fighting on the battle feild, assasination, espionage,or killing rival clans.

and for those who think im full of it i train in ninpo so i know a little more about ninjas than the average joe

back on topic..throwing WS that would be nice.
better h2h...ninjas were not trained to be excellent swordsman
diffrent armor than mnk/sam
more passive abilities
and better ws altogether

[Kiyosuki]

My beautiful thread, what happened to it? ; ;

Guys guys, you have your own opinions which is alright, but stating it in such a I don't know...vicious manner does nothing but provoke endless bickering. Its fine, its fine. If you think the Ninja is meant to blink tank, thats fine, if you don't think that, thats fine too. But as Vivid said I didn't want this to be another Nin/War argument. Its just what you think could be altered to improve the character, even as a blink tank.

The thing where Ninja's weren't meant to blink tank *originally* (key word) came from a FFXI famitsu magazine article. The programmer's didn't originally intend the class to be used as a tank, but it ended up being used in that manner. Thats why Blink tanks have such trouble keeping hate, since Paladin's and Warrior's were geared towards attracting hate, the Ninja wasn't originally. The Utsusemi thing is more of a fluke that just caught on. Weither the programming team decides to keep that feel with the Ninja and expand on it, or completely change its playing style's up for grabs.

Ninja's have actually a number of quite successful combo''s, but unfortunatly they're all relatively high level to work right. And most classes do tend to have one job combination that people tend to perfer. Drg/Sam, Thf/Nin, Whm/Blm, War/Mnk, Nin/War, Rdm/Blm and so on. I have to sympathize with new players here because they're coming into a game that has players that have been playing for a long time and have narrowed down choices to a few widely chosen choices, robbing new players of the freedom to experiment for themselves without being harassed. Its really unfair on so many levels but thats the way it is.

The cookie cutter combo's like War/Mnk, Whm/Blm, Drg/Sam, Nin/War etc are very important to consider though because its common knowledge on what works most with the most simplicity and efficiency, and can act like a backbone to your character to ensure you can be reliable. But everyone has the right to experiment with other combo's too, because sometimes it actually does work much better than expected if the player really experiments with its style and banks on it.(Rdm/Brd?) No one has a right to bully someone or downtalk them into doing only one thing. Anyone who does this doesn't belong in a socially orientated game in my opinion. I use Nin/War, and its pretty cool but I'm still going to experiment with the job later on. Like Nin/Rdm for a Tarutaru, just for the fun of it to see if there's a way to make it really work. Don't bag on someone or overly critisize if they want to try something unusual. The Japanese player's rarely act like that. Although the cookie cutter combo's tend to be the first you look for, at least some curiousity as to how they're class combo's could work with a particular strategy is given, not just flat out critisism. I mean, think for a moment, what do you think player's thought of the first guy who suggested that Ninja of all classes can be a great tank? I bet you anything that guy got critisized a lot, before he showed his strategy, and now its the norm. Drg/Sam took a bit of ingenuity to come up with too, damage dealer that can instantly shed hate. While holding onto what works is very important, this game is the type of game thats always changing. You never know, that job combo you laugh at today could be the next cookie cutter if someone finds a certain way to use it.

Anyways, somewhat back on topic. I stand by my idea that the programming team probably originally intended Ninja's to be damaging enfeeblers, like the Ninja has been in most FF games. Something that does quickly acumulating, possibly high damage and enfeebles critically at the same time. A fighter dedicated to enfeebling with attacking could be highly successful, just look at how Warrior's are sought after for Weapon Break alone, as its such a useful enfeeble type of skill. If the programmer's wanted to do this though they should of made the enfeebles more ingenuitive than just plain old blind, slow, element lower. Who could refuse a character who could maybe enfeeble to lower evasion? Or maybe could also paralyze the enemy to lower movement speed, or flat out break physical defense, or maybe even lower physical damage dealt a little? So far getting to higher levels many of these traits rolled into one character for physical enfeebling would sure be welcome in any of my party's. o.0
Unfortunatly, none of this seemed to have been considered. Maybe one day...till then though Ninja's do make very sweet tanks.

The reason Ninja players tend to complain a little more about being narrowed into the /War corner is because Paladin was obviously geared towards exclusively tanking, while Ninja's have all these other awsome abilities that seem to serve a purpose, but in general take a back seat to one single ability.

As far as tanking goes though, any BLink tanker here's already heard what I think we should get. Nin throwing weapon WS's, maybe slightly faster duel wield, and other assorted tricks to keep hate better and more efficiently would be very welcome.
If anything, raise our evasion rating a bit from A- to A+ since we rely on evasion far more than a Thief ever does.

And ofcourse, I have to mention Auto Sneak again. Tank or no Tank, I wanna be sneaky.

[Tsubame]

I'd like to apologize Kiyosuki (and qweezy, and anyone else) I might have contributed to pulling the thread off topic a bit, though my original intentions were listing some suggestions and changes for Ninja.

I didn't mean to pull the thread off-topic, and if I did, I apologize. I hope I didn't come off too harshly or strongly.

[Kiyosuki]

No no its cool. Just keep level headed with your opinion, don't let it enrage you guys, its such a minor thing to get angry about.

[Mewnie]

Originally posted by qweezy
And this garbage you wrote is intellegent? I don't recall Ninjas being imbalanced, if there is something wrong with the Ninja I'll be the first to bitch about it. I would have quit this job long ago if it wasn't good or fun. If you seriously think there is something wrong with the Ninja job, take your crusade elsewhere cause no one from SE is reading here.

lolololololo BZZT noob hehehe MISTER kiddo, k thx bye! [/B]

Who's the one that came into a thread that was, on the most part, civil and had healthy class disscussion, with this gem?

Yea, and they should make Elvaan like Legolas, remove all thier STR and buff thier AGI. While we're at it they should make them look smaller.

Please.

They are doing what they do best. Maybe you should ask Rangers to put down thier bow cause all they do is shoot with thier bow and get away with it all the way to lvl 75, maybe you should ask the Monk to stop using his fist and use a sword cause he is using too much of his fist and he's PISSING you off! Maybe you should ask the Paladin to stop tanking cause he's always tanking and you don't like it! And maybe...maybe...

Blah, why bother.

But they're not talking about rangers, monks or paladins here. If you're happy with how ninja is, here's a cookie.

[Vivid]

We know, Mewnie, we know.

If anybody wants my humble opinion on how this thread went off topic and into the arguement about nin/war, just ask. Although, I don't think it needs to be pointed out with a lighted wand. It's blatently obvious that there's an on going grudge about nin/war here with /cough certain people. But it's not my place to do anything about it. Let's just end all arguements from this post on, I'd hate to see my buddies thread get shut-down due to another opinionated debate about the glorious ninja.

On a side note, and maybe more on-topic one at that, I still think ninjas should be decked out with scarves that show up on screen. Well, that or maybe just some full facial mask. Or hell, give them something a long the lines of "I am a ninja, you cannot hear me, see me, or smell me. I am a shadow, you will die."

[knox]

just getting back in the game, and being a lvl 25 warrior, im looking at the advance class'. i was going to be a samurai, but now im looking at ninja. i just like the way ninjas do things, dual wielding katanas, blink etc. im going to have to level a thief to around 30 to help with expenses, but that will just add to the game. hopfully the next patch will maybe add something more to the ninja class, give them more damage atleast.

[korosu]

This thread was really good this ppl when way off topic lol.
But i would love to see some Throwing WS, a few more throwing items, San Scrolls lol, and i would really love to see full faced masked or the Ninja Armor from Samurai Showdown I cant remember the Ninja's name but i think everyone knows who i am talking about =)

Just my 2cents

And to think i could kill every man, woman, and child here if i wanted to. The Power of Death is intoxicating

[Tsubame]

Back to the original topic for me...

No changes too drastic, if they will change the Ninja entirely, it has to be gradual or current Ninja will get mad. Imagine levelling War as your sub to be a Blink-tank, and then blink-tanking gets nerfed. Now Warrior has become a pretty useless sub, and Ninja will have to entirely re-level another sub.

Base stats can remain the same, I think their stats head in the right direction.

Job Abilities: What they currently have is good, but some other stealth associated abilities could be nice. Anything active they put here would be encroaching on Thief territory though (IE Hide). They'd be best off with maybe some more passive stealth things, like their level 5 ability.

Weapons:

Mostly pretty good, maybe tweak the 1H Katana WS a bit, make them a bit more appealing.

Throwing weapons def. need WS. It's another Ninja strong-point, but is often overlooked due to the lack of WS, even if the damage is actually pretty good.

Spells/Ninjitsu:

Utsusemi: Leave the number of images, increase the timer between castings. Maybe make a Utsusemi: San with the current timer, to make blink-tanking a possiblity at very high levels (Where the Ninja is considered to have other options right now anyway, so it wouldn't be clashing ideals. Still let the blink-tanks do their thing though)

Elemental Debuffs: These are perfect the way they are think, and are one of the major highlights in my opinion, a lot like what I dream a Ninja would have in FFXI (Not that I dream about FFXI or anything )

'Standard' Debuffs: Drop these. Every mage job has these, can do it better, and without spending gil to do it. Useful soloing maybe, but not many Nin will solo at the level you get these. Replace these with more unique debuffs of some form, like their unique elemental debuffs. Or other self-aids, like a self-haste (Makes sense to me, they are Ninja). Don't make them too independent though, we don't want them to be one man parties.

'Trap' Types: New idea, I know it'll never be implemented...but just a bit of fun. Have ninja trap type spells, which also require a component of some form. It'd be so hard to be implemented though, that it wouldn't be worth it. (Caltrops that you drop that slows the movement speed of enemies that walk over them. Razor-wire that damage any enemy that moves through it. Concealed spikes that damage any enemy that moves on that block of ground) Not feasible, but it's a dream ;P.

It would heighten their pulling ability, as well as aid in a party escape. (Aggro an enemy, then throw down caltrops to slow them down. As they are slowly chasing you, set up some razor wire for them to walk across. Mob reaches the party already debuffed and mildly hurting) (Or the party is running from too strong a mob, Ninja throws down a smoke bomb to temporarily cause monster to miss for a few seconds, during this time the Ninja sets up some caltrops and concealed spike traps) Yeah, I know...it's not happening