If you could alter something about the Ninja..

[Hisdon]

I'd make it so you didn't have to buy powders...jus the scroll

[Tsubame]

Limit Blink-tanking. Leave it the same as it is now, but increase the timer. Enough that it is still a useful support spell, but so that you can't use it as a tanking spell anymore.

I would like to see their throwing abilities refined a bit, create some throwing WS, mostly status-effect additions. (Eye Shot, throws a shuriken in the targets eyes, does some extra damage and adds blind, etc.)

I'd like to see them have En-status spells. Enpoison, Enblind, etc.

Ninja in FF traditonally have had Ninjitsu for inflicting status effects and the like. I'd like to see Ninja as a debuffer, but a different kind from RDM. They'll have debuffs that weaken to an element, and then their more passive status effects from throwing WS and En-status. More of a melee debuffer, whereas RDM is a debuffer-caster

[Karinya]

I agree - Blink tanking has to go. It's not what Ninja should be about. Increase the recast timers so that you can't rely on keeping Blink up constantly.

I think Ninja could probably still be useful in a party for their enfeebles and melee damage, but if not, then they should have better ninjutsu, throwing weapons or lower delay with 2 weapons, not better tanking. (As a non-tank job, ninja would have more freedom of sub, too.)

If this leads to too few tanks, make some better tank gear for monks. (See the thread on tanking monks in the Monk forum - some high level monks contend that monks can't make it as a tank at high levels because they can't get any good defense gear, only offense gear). Monks have the highest HP and VIT in the game, and deserve to be able to tank better than ninjas.

I don't want to see ninjas get En-status effects though - I'd rather save that for the Magic Swordsman (from FFV) in the next expansion. (Yeah, I know, wishful thinking...) Of course, as in FFV, Mahouken and Two Swords would go great together...

[Tsubame]

If they did add a Magic Swordsman, that'd be fine with me too...I was just throwing out ideas for Ninja besides blink-tanking

[qweezy]

Yea, and they should make Elvaan like Legolas, remove all thier STR and buff thier AGI. While we're at it they should make them look smaller.

Really SE can make the game however they like it. Who are you to say what a Ninja 'should' be like?

For me, tanking with illusion seems perfectly fine for a Ninja. Utsusemi means paper soldier, using it to confuse your enemy into hitting them instead of the real target, I don't see any problem with that. If you've played Warcraft 3, look at the Blademaster, he is essentially a Ninja but he can tank damn well for the Orcs with his Mirror Image.

[Tsubame]

Last I checked Utusemi meant Void

I am basing this on what Square has always made their Ninja in a past, in FF games. Last time I chekced, FFXI is a FF game. Besides, Square has already said Ninja were not meant to tank. I should think that the developer knows what they are talking about

[qweezy]

Originally posted by Tsubame
Last I checked Utusemi meant Void

No. Utsusemi is the name of the Ninja who invented the paper soldier move, he is a famous Ninja from older Japanese novels.

Originally posted by Tsubame
I am basing this on what Square has always made their Ninja in a past, in FF games. Last time I chekced, FFXI is a FF game. Besides, Square has already said Ninja were not meant to tank. I should think that the developer knows what they are talking about

Utsusemi: Ni got buffed because the recast time was too long, this was way back before the NA version was released. If Ninjas weren't meant to be tanks, they wouldn't have buffed Utsusemi: Ni. The importers can tell you this.

Show me where they said Ninjas were not meant to be tanks and i'll believe you.

[Mewnie]

Originally posted by qweezy
Yea, and they should make Elvaan like Legolas, remove all thier STR and buff thier AGI. While we're at it they should make them look smaller.

Really SE can make the game however they like it. Who are you to say what a Ninja 'should' be like?

Because, in the end, it's the paying customer that has the final say. Wow, what a concept.

There's been some pretty decent disscussion going on here on ways to make ninjas not so linear and make for a more enjoyable job overall...

But I guess we can all follow your method and pull wild assumptions out of our ass.

[qweezy]

More like you're pulling stuff out of your ass, I didn't make any assumptions anywhere. If you think the Ninja job is linear, then you obviously have not tried the job. A Ninja can do so many things that other jobs can only dream off. Go and do some research then come back kiddo.

[Tsubame]

And there lies my point qweezy.

Niinja CAN do so many other things. Why then are they confined to blink-tanking? If they can do other things, why is NIN/WAR the only acceptable combo? Why don't we see Ninja invited for things besides blink-tanking?

Ninja need to be able to do other things.

Pal and War are tanks...

Now, you might say we have enough damage-dealers already, but no damage dealer is quite the same.

Samurai do it with WS
Rangers with ranged combat
Dark Knights with melee combat
Black Mage for magic
All of them are useful or useless depending on what you are fighting

Why not have Ninja as something different, much like every other job in the game? I love Ninja, and I do appreciate blink-tankers, but why do they need to be confined to that? I'm saying that they need to have other options. Attention needs to be drawn away from Utusemi and focused on other aspects of the Ninja, such as their exceptional throwing abilities or their other ninjitsu.

[Mewnie]

I'm getting sick of this if you don't like it, quit. They didn't make this game for you bullshit. BZZT wrong. It''s called class balance, and if you played EQ, then I'm sure you're familiar with the player base sometimes having to voice an opinion to the devs on something they see is wrong with thier favorite class.

IMHO this game needs more player input to the devs instead of take it or leave it n00b lololol

The disscussion has been intelligent and informative, until you popped in with your that's not how it works because I said so

[Mewnie]

And that's MISTER Kiddo to you, nut nuzzler

[TMPikachu]

Originally posted by Mewnie
I'm getting sick of this if you don't like it, quit. They didn't make this game for you bullshit. BZZT wrong. It''s called class balance, and if you played EQ, then I'm sure you're familiar with the player base sometimes having to voice an opinion to the devs on something they see is wrong with thier favorite class.

IMHO this game needs more player input to the devs instead of take it or leave it n00b lololol

The disscussion has been intelligent and informative, until you popped in with your that's not how it works because I said so

the thing is though, YOU are not the sole person who makes these decisions either. You are chastising him for disagreeing with you, for telling you that 'his' way is better, but you yourself are arguing 'your' opinion against his.

It's all opinions. You can see the warrior class as a trained knight and demand more technique moves, or berserker barbarian who deserves stronger rages. You can see the dark knight as a wild demon or tortured soul, you can see the red mage as a vagabound rogue or erudite wizard, etc.

Personally, Ninjas can do alot of things IN ADDITION TO TANKING
casting Utsumei (sp?) does not stop the ninja from throwing ninja stars or casting weakening jutsu's.

Having a tank that uses evasions and illusions over being a fat sack of armor is also pretty cool.
Ninjas are also exellent pullers (cast blink, throw stars, scamper back)

[Mewnie]

I didn't say it was my descision on what is or isn't..it's the players as a whole that decide if something is worth changing or keeping as is. There are quite a few good ideas brought up here, none of them mine by the way.

Just making light that perhaps they should be taken to the devs and see what they think, if they haven't already looked into such things.


Of all the ninja I've PTed with, the ratio of shihei to other powders used is 20:1 on average, that tells me something right there...a ninja could probably get away with just utsumei ichi and ni all the way to 75, since that is all that's expected of them

[qweezy]

Originally posted by Tsubame
Pal and War are tanks...

Now, you might say we have enough damage-dealers already, but no damage dealer is quite the same.

Samurai do it with WS
Rangers with ranged combat
Dark Knights with melee combat
Black Mage for magic
All of them are useful or useless depending on what you are fighting

They are both tanks, and they tank differently.

Pld tank with High Defense
Ninja tank with Utsusemi

Nin/War is the most accepted combination because you need Provoke to be a good tank. You dont see Paladins complaining about being forced to sub War. Would invite a Pld/Thf? . Really what do you want from the Ninja? We're already doing 125% Tank, 75% Attack, 100% Debuff, and 50% Utility. Asking for more will overpower the class.

Originally posted by Mewnie
I'm getting sick of this if you don't like it, quit. They didn't make this game for you bullshit. BZZT wrong. It''s called class balance, and if you played EQ, then I'm sure you're familiar with the player base sometimes having to voice an opinion to the devs on something they see is wrong with thier favorite class.

IMHO this game needs more player input to the devs instead of take it or leave it n00b lololol

The disscussion has been intelligent and informative, until you popped in with your that's not how it works because I said so

And this garbage you wrote is intellegent? I don't recall Ninjas being imbalanced, if there is something wrong with the Ninja I'll be the first to bitch about it. I would have quit this job long ago if it wasn't good or fun. If you seriously think there is something wrong with the Ninja job, take your crusade elsewhere cause no one from SE is reading here.

lolololololo BZZT noob hehehe MISTER kiddo, k thx bye!