How do higher lvl Ninja's Keep hate?

[tonka]

Asked some JP friends about higher level ninja capability, their opinion was that the better tank depends on what kind of PT, but that both PAL and NIN were very desired classes.

They thought that PAL can hold hate better than NIN but requires heavy healing, ie a good WHM. A PAL needs strong attackers like DRK and BLM to kill the mob quickly. Lots of mana spent by WHM and BLM causes some downtime.

A NIN based PT should have THF and DRG as attackers, because both can control hate very well. The benefit is that there is very little downtime and its possible to even add 1 more melee and use only 2 mages (not a bad thing since mages are usually the hard part of making a PT).

Both classes are dependent. A PAL is dependent on WHM. A NIN is dependent on THF. And again, they said both classes were great.

[Aldo]

i don't know how paladins go about it, but especially if you have a theif, you cannot efficiently keep face if you are taunting every 30 seconds. its all well and good early into fights, but when you want to do a renkei and the starting ws from 2nd melee doesn't turn the face yokodama can't be done off of you so either they do it on the 2nd melee and you can taunt + MB or if the 2nd melee is subbed war sheathe weapons or turn around to allow the 2nd melee to take face - not however this does not always work, and will never work if you are taunting every 30 seconds, always cast an element after taunting, it usually gets the face again. good thing about nin is your mages save alot of mp, so you can really appreciate a black mage, and moreso a sexy sexy samurai that gives you 2 incurve renkeis. fyi - do not play ninja when its 8am in the morning and your downing your 14th beer, someone could get hurt.

[Lean]

The only time I have trouble keeping face is when my RL friend, a RNG, uses Berserk + Sharpshot + Barriage AND ONLY when it does 400+ damage. He does it at the beginning of the fight at times just to piss me off, draining healers MP.

I USE to have this problem, but when I equipped the attack + gloves I didn't see the mob moving as much.

Of course...you need to Berserk and use Meat Mithakabobs...

[Shinoro]

Lean, same thing with me.

The only time I have a hard time keeping aggro is when my RNG uses Barrage and it does a certain amount of damage. The thing is, at some point in a RNG, or DRK's llife, for example, they have to learn how to deal their damage. Just using every ability when its ready is not efficient for the group. Yeah you're frontloading an assload of damage, but during your cool-off period, you're taking a lot of hate and burning WHM mana. Damage dealers have to learn how to space ou their damage over the course of the fight to compliment the tank, this is something that can't be taught, but the best dmg dealers do it well.

Back to keeping hate, in my regular group, the Ranger pulls, and I begin casting my debuffs before the mob arrives. I'll tell you now Jubaku and Kuryami seem to really piss the mobs off a bit. Also, anytime you cast Utsusemi, it creates a bit of enmity and makes the mob turn to you. And as stated, all tanks should provoke every 30 seconds, not just when the mob starts to turn. Its harder for a NIN than a PLD, but its not a big gap, just takes more effort/money on the NIN's part.

[Navia]

After my pt in boyhada last night i'm leaning more towards getting a PLD to tank. The nin/war had real problems holding hate even when I hasted only him and the THF was tricking onto him even (couldnt haste the MNK in the pt or she would end up tanking lol).
He wasn't throwing shurikens and he would either go untouched or drop to red hps all of a sudden barely giving me time to fire off a CureIV
NIN/WAR does not tank well against knight crawler and those crazy double attacking, head butt happy mandragora type monsters(maurioche?).
It seems like shurikens are a must have by the mid 50s or hate control is an absolute mess.

[Kiyosuki]

All tanks really have to use everything at they're disposal to be a good tank. Warrior's have to have the the most optimal damage output they can dish out, and provoke every 30 and Warcry moment they can. I've never used this ability before but Aggressor will probably be a very useful ability as the Enemy starts to become much harder to hit, that sacrifice in evasion is probably a really minimal sacrifice for that added accuracy.

Paladin's have to provoke every thirty, and be profficient in how they use they're White Magic. Treating Flash like a second provoke, and not spamming it, but using it often and efficiently along with provoke can be a good thing. Since Pld damage is really starting to show its weakness (Until you get great Sword WS's like Spirits Within for an extra push) I think a smart thing to do is to know when to cure. Perhaps save Cure III for yourself when you absolutely need it, and use the other Cures or what not for various other members since although I don't know this for sure, it always seemed like curing another member of your pt generated more hate than curing yourself. Is this right? It always seems that way to me. Although most of the time you want to center your cures at yourself, I've never played Paladin so my understanding of it is limited, but the best Pld's I've played with have used everything at they're advantage.

Ninja's are the least hate bringing so they're really the most challenging of all the tanks. Its a trade off, Warrior's do high damage but sacrifice the best defense for this, Paladins have high defense and hate keeping ability but have abysmal offense and can only stay in the game for so long. Ninja's can be unstoppable tanks, but they have do everything and backflip practically to keep enemy attention. Like I said in another thread, you have to know how to use EVERYTHING a Ninja has to offer. I know of a lot of Ninja tanks who don't buy evasion equipment, and Shuriken's as well as leveling they're throwing ability, because as well as the cost of Utsusemi you gotta deal with that too. Its really not a class for everyone, learning how to make money fast and efficiently, as well as the once in a while big jump in funds is an essential quality to playing this class.

The Ninja in your group had trouble keeping hate because it sounds like it did provoke, blink, provoke. Even for Pld's and Warrior's thats just not enough. But War's and Pld's can use they're other options to keep hate for free, for Ninja's it unfortunatly costs gil. I'd give my right leg to have the programmer's raise Ninja attack power even a little, it would make it so much easier. But unfortunatly thats not the case. Ninja hits get much, much faster but that takes a while so till then a Ninja *must* be profficient in throwing weapons, and have access to all the Ninjutsu. Jubaku and Kurayami are hate keeping tools, Kurayami makes you harder to hit, and Jubaku poisons, and when poison acumulates it acumulates hate to you. To be efficient you have to judge for yourself when is the right time to use each of these tools. If Hojo hits it can really help out if you have high evasion. So many misses, a string of misses is something Blink tanks want to see. Jubaku is for hate keeping purposes only, Poison damage is really minimal at this point but that damage turns into hate. Often Ninja's want weapons with effects too, Poison is a great one for keeping hate. It can take some pressure off you by poisoning the enemy automatically. In fact, weapon effects are more important than your actual damage. Ofcourse you don't want crappy Katana's that do 8 damage. But if the damage is good, and it has a great weapon effect that can help you so much. I can't wait to try this one Katana that gives you a plus % in parrying. I'm hoping its not Rare/Ex so I can get two and duel wield those. Parrying+Evasion+Utsusemi+Kura/Hojo=Untouchable Ninja. :D If you combine your regular attack (Maybe plus weapon effects for extra effect) with the occasional Shuriken (max throwing ability)+The effect tools and if you know the Enemy's weakness before hand, match it up to the right Elemental debuff and your hate keeping will be just fine.

More than any of the other tanks Ninja's require attentiveness and awarness. But don't think Ninja's are horrible tanks because you may meet one that can't keep hate. Just remind yourself of every horrible Paladin you've come across. Taking damage plus not keeping hate. Tanking is damn easy pre 30. But it gets a little more complicated afterwards. Once your in your groove you get used to it I think, but you have to use everything at your disposal, and know when to use it and how to be efficient and reliable.

[Vivid]

Doesn't take much for a ninja to control a fight.

[Kiyosuki]

Yeah seriously. I've said a lot, and you really do need to know how to use everything at your disposal but when its all said and done, no class can really have trouble aquiring massive hate to themselves with just a little bit of effort, Ninja's included.

The Ninja's in my experience who have trouble controlling a fight tend to rely solely on blink alone, but that and provoke just arn't enough. But with a little extra effort and abilities thrown in you really shouldn't have that much of a problem.

I guess the *extra* little bit of effort part is the key phrase here.