[TEST] Counter Data

[nanatsu]

Re: [TEST] Counter Data

I guess I need to add some /sarcasm tags. Maybe Mhurron can show me how they work?

Just add water. :p

[DakAttack]

Re: [TEST] Counter Data

I think this is as close to a true experiment as you can get in an MMORPG. He has both a control condition and test condition. He doesn't have the strictest control over his enviroment and test subjects, but if the test was done on the same day and within the same weather effects there shouldn't be anything confounding.

I thought the question posed was a little misleading. Only a little.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: [TEST] Counter Data

Flawed test its not pretty clear from your test. I already know it to be true, but your testing is flawed. You don't show where you eliminated all other possible variables.

Explain said flaws. I've known Armando's tests to not only to be comprehensive, but placed in terms for most users to understand.

Also what wiki "team" are you on. I see an account on ffxiclopedia with the same name, is that you? Thats just a joe average member on ffxiclopedia. 1st impression of you reading your threads here is you want to pass yourself off as some kind of authority. I ran into your threads here by google search for something unrelated.

He is a part of our Wiki team, which is slowly getting off the ground. That said, I'll take his data over the hearsay of people who have been playing for four or five years and thump on how many 75s they have as a means of credibility.

Way to look like an unthinking ass on your first post, feel free to return to Alla/KI or whatever other hole you crawled out of.

[Armando]

Re: [TEST] Counter Data

Flawed test its not pretty clear from your test. I already know it to be true, but your testing is flawed. You don't show where you eliminated all other possible variables.

Also what wiki "team" are you on. I see an account on ffxiclopedia with the same name, is that you? Thats just a joe average member on ffxiclopedia. 1st impression of you reading your threads here is you want to pass yourself off as some kind of authority. I ran into your threads here by google search for something unrelated.

No.

[Nuriko]

Re: [TEST] Counter Data

If you really want to know about Signet possibly making a difference in the hit rate, you could just check the hit rate directly under Signet, then let it wear (or overwrite with Sanction or Sigil) and test again. It's incidental, really ... if you can check hit rate and counter rate on the same data, it shouldn't be hard to tell if they match up in that manner.

Personally, what I wonder is just WHICH swings the Counter results are being taken from? Can you counter hits only, misses only, or regardless of hit/miss ... and what of evasion and parry results?

[Armando]

Re: [TEST] Counter Data

Evasion/Parry and Shadows check before Counter - you can't counter with shadows up (thus, Shadows are checked before Counter) and we know Evasion/Parry check before shadows. Because of this, parries and misses aren't counted. You basically have to "take a hit" in some form to Counter - however, I'm not clear how it interacts with shielding and guarding. That's why I chose to use a Staff.

The Counter rate was calculated as "# of Counters/(# of hits I took + # of counters)". It may seem illogical to add the number of counters to the divisor at first glance, but if you think about it, it makes sense - I'm looking for the ratio of counters to hits taken, and countering a hit implies it bypassed my Evasion and Parry and thus would've hit me.

I don't think Signet was the culprit - I had approximately 30% hit rate even with Signet off, in a more rushed and informal test. It seems that the Accuracy formula doesn't hold perfectly under extreme circumstances (either extreme level difference or extreme Acc/Eva difference.) But as long as my hit rate matches my counter rate, then it won't disprove my proposed model of effective Counter rate being 10% * Hit Rate.

[Malacite]

Re: [TEST] Counter Data

Wouldn't it make more sense to test this on MNK then, when you can only evade or guard and not parry? Plus you can pop counterstance to see just how much of an effect it has

I'm still not buying the signet = more accuracy thing though as there has been no proof or mentioning of this anywhere ever.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: [TEST] Counter Data

Wouldn't it make more sense to test this on MNK then, when you can only evade or guard and not parry?

No; Armando has just explained that we don't have a clear understanding of the interaction between guarding and countering. The sensible thing is do is then to minimize the chance of guarding when testing counter to lessen the influence it may (or may not) have.

[Callisto]

Re: [TEST] Counter Data

I don't think Signet was the culprit - I had approximately 30% hit rate even with Signet off, in a more rushed and informal test. It seems that the Accuracy formula doesn't hold perfectly under extreme circumstances (either extreme level difference or extreme Acc/Eva difference.) But as long as my hit rate matches my counter rate, then it won't disprove my proposed model of effective Counter rate being 10% * Hit Rate.

That was one hell of a necro, lol. Anyways...

I have been under the impression that there is a level gap modifier to Acc that works backwards similar to the one that you get hit with for swinging at something that is higher than you, although maybe the bonus doesn't start until further off in terms of level gap.

Have you ever attempted to figure out your expected hit rate using the formula, then parse on EPs-TWs just to see how close it came? I'm wondering if maybe the point where the mob hits TW(that's -10~ levels?) may begin to give a bonus that gets multiplied the further the gap becomes.

[TheBridge]

Re: [TEST] Counter Data

I'll let Armando defend him/herself but who the hell are you and why should any of us care what you're ranting on about?

lol @ your first post ever, on ffxionline, flaming Armando.

Although, I can see from the plentiful arguments which you presented how Armando's testing is flawed...

Theres nothing to defend because its not an "attack". Its simply the observation that all variable are not accounted for. More work to do with he wants to have groundbreaking proof of something. And the rest is question and pointing out that claims without backing don't make you look cool, they make you look like a that guy trying to look cool. If I'm back at all its in hopes of seeing new data/better testing from him, and won't bother even reading the typical web forum crap I'm sure is coming. I don't know you people I don't know him I hit here from google and called it like I see it. Have a nice day and "lol".

[Malacite]

Re: [TEST] Counter Data

Hmm I hadn't thought about Guard's possible impact on countering (Maybe that's the reason it's so god damn hard to level up? But then PUP has guard too but no counter trait)

Well, since you can't parry with Hand to Hand, why not use that? With no guard skill and no parry that would simplify things quite a bit.

[Tsrwedge]

Re: [TEST] Counter Data

Theres nothing to defend because its not an "attack". Its simply the observation that all variable are not accounted for. More work to do with he wants to have groundbreaking proof of something. And the rest is question and pointing out that claims without backing don't make you look cool, they make you look like a that guy trying to look cool. If I'm back at all its in hopes of seeing new data/better testing from him, and won't bother even reading the typical web forum crap I'm sure is coming. I don't know you people I don't know him I hit here from google and called it like I see it. Have a nice day and "lol".

So, which variables?

That's why you're being treated as a troll right now. You've come in, new member, said his method was flawed, but that's it. Now, ceterus paribas, if you'd mentioned which variables you were concerned were not accounted for, there'd be a civil and intelligent discourse about either how they were in fact isolated or how to improve the experiment.

[Kittyneko]

Re: [TEST] Counter Data

Yea TheBridge,
I think you've come off on the wrong foot here. I'd suggest apologizing for the passive-aggressive post about things you didn't know about, such as our Wiki team. That kind of stuff, in your first post nota bene, gives a weird and wrong first impression of you. You're still welcome to our forums and community ofcourse. ^^ Maybe it would be nice if you introduced yourself on our "New Member's" board first?

New User Introduction / Access Problem? / How to... - Final Fantasy XI :: Dreams in Vana'diel :: Community

[Callisto]

Re: [TEST] Counter Data

Hmm I hadn't thought about Guard's possible impact on countering (Maybe that's the reason it's so god damn hard to level up? But then PUP has guard too but no counter trait)

Well, since you can't parry with Hand to Hand, why not use that? With no guard skill and no parry that would simplify things quite a bit.

Unless he has a spare 75 WAR or NIN hanging around that he's been holding out on us, he wouldn't be able to test the effects with high accuracy due to PLD getting no native H2H skill.

[Malacite]

Re: [TEST] Counter Data

Oh right need accuracy >_> shit