MNK Hand-To-Hand Question

[Armando]

Re: MNK Hand-To-Hand Question

100% proc rate? That's pretty sweet. How much does it do unresisted?

[Ellipses]

Re: MNK Hand-To-Hand Question

How much would the Accuracy and Attack bonuses on Republic Knuckles offset the lower DPS? Or is that factored in already?

[Tomato_Kai]

Re: MNK Hand-To-Hand Question

It's not. I'm not the flaming type, but even from a fairly quick introduction to the forums, cross referencing what I know, with proven information, and whatever it is that Armando says - I've found that he's frequently incorrect and usually downright combative. Regardless, I don't think any simple calculation presented would accurately display the DPS difference between all of the items specified and be able to take into account things like accuracy and atk.

[Ellipses]

Re: MNK Hand-To-Hand Question

Well, hopefully that doesn't start some pointless argument or something. I was just asking because I didn't know the answer & was curious. Somehow I missed this entirely:

Also, I found the extra accuracy and attack quite helpful. Yeah, it's only 1% hit rate and 3 attack but every little bit helps. Especially for those nice fat attack foods early on (Juicy Mutton FTW! +27% attack) You're absolutely right about the delay though.

[Tomato_Kai]

Re: MNK Hand-To-Hand Question

Well, hopefully that doesn't start some pointless argument or something.

You know, you're right. I don't know what I was thinking. Sorry Armando. On another note: Someone was explaining that different types of fist weapons offer different damage types. Knuckles/Cesti are bludgeoning (i.e: clubs, staves, etc.), Patas are slicing (i.e. swords, axes, etc.) and claws/baghnakhs are piercing(i.e: daggers, arrows, etc). Switching between them on the fly seems like an interesting concept, can anyone confirm/deny this? I've seen no proof of it myself.

[Dahlaine]

Re: MNK Hand-To-Hand Question

All h2h weapons are blunt damage, w/ one exception. Vampire claws do slashing damage IIRC, but weapons skills with them are still blunt.

[Lmnop]

Re: MNK Hand-To-Hand Question

Armando, Boreas Cesti are 100%, but it's also rather pitiful damage. All the same, 1-5 added damage (I don't think I've ever seen it do even 7 in Altep) really adds up.

I've found that he's frequently incorrect and usually downright combative.

Welcome to the boards. I take it you're coming from Alla -- I've seen Armando's posts around there, before. "Combative" is 100% accurate. Around here, though, with the exception of being a bit blunt (like starting a response with the word "False"), you'll find he's one of the more courteous posters.

And also... as much as we may wish he'd screw up just once... Armando's pretty much always right. He's a great resource, but it'd be nice if just once, he said something dumb and we all flamed the crap out of him.

[Tomato_Kai]

Re: MNK Hand-To-Hand Question

Two answers to two responses rather quickly. Nice to see. All Fist weapon damage is blunt, with one exception. Got it. Thanks! Like I said, I hadn't seen this proven before, but I haven't played MNK long enough to really know all the ropes.

At any rate, I'm less concerned with the courtesy of Armando's response than I am the accuracy of his statements. Regardless, I'll take this as another opportunity to apologize - I do not wish to start a flame war. I do not wish this to go any further than it has.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: MNK Hand-To-Hand Question

I do not wish this to go any further than it has.

Why keep attacking Armando, then? He replies to threads to help, not to chime in negative comments--check out why people thank him so frequently.

Armando is also the local expert on the topic of "damage", FYI, and he knows DPS calculations have some simplifying assumptions, but there are no other simple numbers which can be used to easily compare weapons' outputs.

[Armando]

Re: MNK Hand-To-Hand Question

@ TOMATO KAI

No offense taken, though I don't know what the heck gave you the idea I'm usually incorrect. Not to toot my own horn or anything but I have a pretty long and good track record of posting correct info.

Anyways, the numbers I presented are the DMG/sec ratings (for a single hand) of Republic Knuckles and Lynx Baghnakhs for a Lv.24 MNK. Needless to say, you get the number by dividing the weapon's DMG by its Delay in seconds. 60 Delay = 1 second, so we have DMG/(Delay/60) which is the same as DMG*60/Delay.

However, MNK weapons don't have fixed DMG and Delay ratings. They add a certain amount of DMG and Delay to your character's barehanded DMG and Delay. A character's barehanded DMG is equal to floor(3 + (H2H Skill * 0.11)). Floor basically means drop all decimals. Barehanded Delay (for both hands) is 480 without Martial Arts, 400 with Martial Arts 1, and -20 for every further level of Martial Arts. Delay per hand would just be that number halved (the Delay values on weapons also have to be halved, as they represent the Delay they add to your whole attack round.)

In the case of Lynx Baghnakhs, a Lv.24 MNK has 75 H2H Skill. (75*.11) + 3 = 11.25, so 11 DMG. Lynx Baghnakhs is +6 DMG, so that's 17 DMG per hand. At 24, MNKs have Martial Arts II, which puts them at 380 Delay barehanded. Lynx Baghnakhs are +30 Delay, so 410 in total for both hands. That's 205 per hand. So the DMG/sec (referred to as DPS in most sites) rating is 17*60/205 = 4.98. So now you know where the number comes from.

DMG/sec does not take into account STR, Accuracy, or Attack. However, it still serves as a very handy number for comparing weapons. DMG's effect on your damage output is purely linear, so a weapon with twice the DPS as another will do twice the damage over time. Likewise, a weapon with 11% more DPS than another (like Lynx Baghnakhs over Republic Knuckles) does 11% more damage over time. If the weapons are reasonably close in Delay, STR affects them roughly equally (STR gives a small DMG boost to your weapons, which could be added to your weapon's DMG when figuring DPS if you liked.) And if Accuracy and Attack are the same on both weapons, then it's pretty much a non-issue.

However, Republic Knuckles adds a small bit of Accuracy and Attack which DO need to be taken into account. Fortunately, it's rather easy to get a stat calculator, figure out a character's stats, tack on a reasonable set of equipment, and find out how much Attack and Accuracy a MNK of a certain level would have. Likewise, we have formulas to calculate a monster's stats at any given level. We also happen to have formulas for the damage we inflict on mobs, so using all that, we can account for the stats on Republic Knuckles.

@ ELLIPSES

Ok. Let's put together a fictional MNK character. I'll arbitrarily call him Ryu. Lv.24, Hume, WAR sub. That means he has 29 STR, 29 DEX naked. Now to put together a reasonable, affordable gear set. Mercenary's Hachimaki (STR+1), Spike Necklace (STR+3 DEX+3), Beetle Earring +1 x2 (+6 Attack), Battle Gloves (+3 Acc), Courage Rings x2 (+4 STR,) Power Gi (STR+1), Bastokan Subligar (+3 Attack), Windurstian Kyahan (+3 Attack.) He eats Roast Mutton (STR+3 Attack+27%). Now, we have this other MNK, Ken, who is EXACTLY like Ryu, except that Ryu uses Lynx Baghnakhs and Ken uses Republic Knuckles. In short, their stats are:

Ryu
STR: 41
DEX: 32
Attack: 146
Accuracy: 94

Ken
STR: 41
DEX: 32
Attack: 149
Accuracy: 96

Now, Ryu and Ken are probably in Yuhtunga Jungle right now, fighting Lv.30-33 Yuhtunga Mandragora. Let's go with the worst case scenario (which favors the extra Acc and Attack on Republic Knuckles) and assume they're fighting a Lv.33 Mandy. Using Studio Gobli's formulas (which I've explained previously in this post) and data I've collected from Yhoator Mandragora, this Lv.33 Yuhtunga Mandragora has these stats or something extremely close:

VIT: 41
AGI: 29
Defense: 122 (115 after Dia)
Evasion: 111

Now let's tackle this one factor at a time:

fSTR: +2 on both weapons. That brings the DPS of Lynx Baghnakhs to 5.3 and Republic Knuckles to 4.78. Lynx Baghnakh's 11% DPS advantage remains.

Attack vs Defense (i.e. pDIF): Ryu has an average pDIF of 0.742. Ken, on the other hand, has an average pDIF of 0.765. Lynx Baghnakhs' pDIF is effectively 96.99% of Republic Knuckles'.

Hit Rate: With Lynx Baghnakhs, Ryu has an abysmal 48.5% hit rate. With Republic Knuckles, Ken has 49.5% hit rate. Ryu's hit rate is 97.98% of Ken's.

So, in this scenario, Lynx Baghnakhs have 111% of Republic Knuckles's DPS, 96.99% of their average pDIF and 97.98% of their hit rate. Multiply all of that, and you're left with 1.0548. That is, even in the worst case scenario, fighting an evasive MNK mob 9 levels higher than you at Lv.24, Lynx Baghnakhs still do 5.48% more damage than Republic Knuckles. If an easier target is picked, then Lynx Baghnakhs will pull further ahead of Republic Knuckles (though not by leaps and bounds, obviously.)

For Tomato Kai: To read more about fSTR and pDIF, visit VZX's FFXI Doc.

...

Goddamn, only took me about 2 hours. You see, this is why I prefer sticking to blunt posts and making educated assumptions (i.e. an 11% difference in DPS is too big for +2 Acc and +3 Attack to overcome,) even if it comes off as confrontational and has a certain degree of uncertainty.

[Lmnop]

Re: MNK Hand-To-Hand Question

Thanks! for the Monk standardized naming conventions; not the thread-killing mathz.

You forgot Purple Belt though technically, it should benefit both equally.

[Malacite]

Re: MNK Hand-To-Hand Question

All h2h weapons are blunt damage, w/ one exception. Vampire claws do slashing damage IIRC, but weapons skills with them are still blunt.

Actually, that's not technically correct. For some stupid reason, H2H is treated as being similar to blunt, but doesn't have the same damage mods. Wiki shows that there are 2 types of blunt weapons, which are hand to hand, and Impact (Staves, Clubs etc) with Impact having generally higher... well, impact XD against mobs that are weak to it.

Damage Types - FFXIclopedia - a Wikia Gaming wiki


It's all rather weird and complicated. I wish SE would just write into each weapon's description a single letter for damage type (S, P, B, I)


And actually, no the purple belt would benefit the Lynx More than the Republic because of the screwy exponential way Haste works. My views may be scewed though since well, I'm elvaan and thus have the highest STR (which means a few points more attack) and I tend to favor meat over sushi whenever I can, so yeah.

[Ellipses]

Re: MNK Hand-To-Hand Question

Goddamn, only took me about 2 hours. You see, this is why I prefer sticking to blunt posts and making educated assumptions (i.e. an 11% difference in DPS is too big for +2 Acc and +3 Attack to overcome,) even if it comes off as confrontational and has a certain degree of uncertainty.

I don't blame you; that's a hell of a lot of detail. I really appreciate all the hard work. Things are much clearer now, and I'm going to have to take a better look at all this sometime when I'm less distracted.

[Dahlaine]

Re: MNK Hand-To-Hand Question

Actually, that's not technically correct. For some stupid reason, H2H is treated as being similar to blunt, but doesn't have the same damage mods. Wiki shows that there are 2 types of blunt weapons, which are hand to hand, and Impact (Staves, Clubs etc) with Impact having generally higher... well, impact XD against mobs that are weak to it.

You are right, but I was just focusing on the question asked. I can see why the difference in H2H blunt and Impact blunt damage, the whole big stick getting swung at something vs. flailing about with your fists, I usually don't focus on the technical difference though.

[Lmnop]

Re: MNK Hand-To-Hand Question

Actually, that's not technically correct. For some stupid reason, H2H is treated as being similar to blunt, but doesn't have the same damage mods. Wiki shows that there are 2 types of blunt weapons, which are hand to hand, and Impact (Staves, Clubs etc) with Impact having generally higher... well, impact XD against mobs that are weak to it.

Correct. I believe in general, HtH = half the benefit of actual bludgeoning or "impact" type?

And actually, no the purple belt would benefit the Lynx More than the Republic because of the screwy exponential way Haste works.

Except both would only have 3% Haste. Swinging 3% faster should equal the same impact on DPS regardless of weapon delay. i.e. Given 2 weapons with identical DPS but vastly differing delays, Haste should affect both equally.

My views may be scewed though since well, I'm elvaan and thus have the highest STR (which means a few points more attack) and I tend to favor meat over sushi whenever I can, so yeah.

I don't have anything to tell you about this, except that I think, once again, it'd favor both instances equally.